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Buffnut453
2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

She is dressed in the uniform of a RAMC Corporal, note the Geneva cross above the stripes.

Women dressing in men’s uniform became popular after some female music hall artistes did so with popular acclaim, but it had also been the practice of Royalty pre-war, especially in Europe, leading to publicity in many national newspapers.

 

Thanks for this, Frogsmile.  I had the same question as Gardenrbill above...presumably she's wearing the uniform of a relative or sweetheart?  

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FROGSMILE
46 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

 

Thanks for this, Frogsmile.  I had the same question as Gardenrbill above...presumably she's wearing the uniform of a relative or sweetheart?  

 

A sweetheart or perhaps sister would be my bet, especially the latter, where social morality issues of that time would not be so difficult.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Toby Brayley

RE group sent from Gravesend 1910. EDVII Capbadges. 

ED7 RE.jpg

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FROGSMILE
On 16/05/2018 at 14:21, Drew-1918 said:

5afc2ee1dd58f_WW1GHQGroupFront.jpg.b0220250fc2893d3d54d16f7a745d540.jpg

"G. H. Q., 3rd Echelon, B.E.F., France


Christmas, 1916

   To my darling little Wifie
      With every loving wish
        From her Willie"

close-up.png.5cb6403ad9b36ad0fe148e0386f99014.png
 

 

I forgot to mention Drew that the warrant officer seated immediately adjacent to the officers (and like them wearing a Sam Browne belt) is either, a Conductor or a First Class Staff Sergeant Major. Both were specialist logisticians (in modern speak) and among the most senior grades of WOI after 1915.  They would typically be found in high level headquarters, as is the case here.  The badge of rank and appointment was at first a crown within a laurel wreath, but by 1918 had become  a coat of arms surrounded by a circular laurel wreath.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Toby Brayley
19 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

RE group sent from Gravesend 1910. EDVII Capbadges. 

ED7 RE.jpg

 

Looking through my collection I had never realised I have this card, same location but in 1908. "We are at Gravesend on a shooting course". Also with SMLE Mk1s. 

ED7 RE Gravesend shooting 1908.jpg

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Drew-1918
19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I forgot to mention Drew that the warrant officer seated immediately adjacent to the officers (and like them wearing a Sam Browne belt) is either, a Conductor or a First Class Staff Sergeant Major. Both were specialist logisticians (in modern speak) and among the most senior grades of WOI after 1915.  They would typically be found in high level headquarters, as is the case here.  The badge of rank and appointment was at first a crown within a laurel wreath, but by 1918 had become  a coat of arms surrounded by a circular laurel wreath.

Very interesting detail. Thanks very much. I had never heard of such an appointment (If that is the right term). 

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FROGSMILE
On 23/05/2018 at 12:33, Drew-1918 said:

Very interesting detail. Thanks very much. I had never heard of such an appointment (If that is the right term). 

 

Conductors and Army Schoolmasters were the first ever British Army 'Warrant Officers' (although Conductor as an ancient appointment had existed previously), initially on the Indian Establishment only, but after the Cardwell Reforms of 1870-1881, on the Home Establishment (Britain and Ireland) too.  You can read about Conductors here: http://www.rlc-conductor.info/Badge_of_Appointment.htm

 

First Class Staff Sergeant Majors were an alternative appointment to Conductor adopted by the supply organisation after it was separated from the stores organisation in the early 1890s.

 

Whichever he was the man in your photo would have been a linchpin in the process of logistics.  Such men were the link between financial accountability and the actual delivery of stores to the frontline.

 

N.B.  Until recently Conductors considered themselves the most senior Warrant Officer appointment (this was true only in longevity, in fact ‘seniority’ was by date of appointment within class group), but all debate was rendered null and void by a single, Sergeant Major of the Army appointment in 2015.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Dave1418
8 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Looking through my collection I had never realised I have this card, same location but in 1908. "We are at Gravesend on a shooting course". Also with SMLE Mk1s. 

ED7 RE Gravesend shooting 1908.jpg

Likely to be Milton Barracks to the East fo Gravesend which is where the range is which is still in use today and sits parallel to the river Thames 

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FROGSMILE
3 minutes ago, Dave1418 said:

Likely to be Milton Barracks to the East fo Gravesend which is where the range is which is still in use today and sits parallel to the river Thames 

 

I wonder if the distinctive statue of a kneeling rifleman at top left of the frame is still there.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Dave1418
Just now, FROGSMILE said:

 

I wonder if the statue of a kneeling rifleman at top left of the frame is still there.

I can't remember it being there or in the park nearby which was part of the fort.

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FROGSMILE
56 minutes ago, Dave1418 said:

I can't remember it being there or in the park nearby which was part of the fort.

 

It would be unusual for a statue of that significance to go missing l think.

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Terry_Reeves

I have a feeling that the statue is one of a Boer. Three similar statues  were put on display at Brompton barracks, Chatham  which fits the time-line and location for the photograph, and the plinth is exactly the same. They were later returned to South Africa.

 

http://tinyurl.com/y76jkdv3

 

http://tinyurl.com/yc5r74xc

 

TR

Edited by Terry_Reeves

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FROGSMILE
31 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

I have a feeling that the statue is one of a Boer. Three similar statues  were put on display at Brompton barracks, Chatham  which fits the time-line and location for the photograph, and the plinth is exactly the same. They were later returned to South Africa.

 

http://tinyurl.com/y76jkdv3

 

http://tinyurl.com/yc5r74xc

 

TR

 

Great detective work Terry.

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Terry_Reeves

 

...and I think this might be the one after return to Pretoria:

 

http://tinyurl.com/y7avz8be

 

TR

Edited by Terry_Reeves

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Toby Brayley

Super , thank you chaps, yes it appears to be the kneeling Kruger!

 

 

kruger.JPG

Edited by Toby Brayley

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Pat Atkins
On 23/05/2018 at 11:42, Toby Brayley said:

 

Looking through my collection I had never realised I have this card, same location but in 1908. "We are at Gravesend on a shooting course". Also with SMLE Mk1s. 

 

Is that the same NCO instructor in both cards? And would he be a 2nd Corporal, with that one stripe?

 

 

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FROGSMILE
33 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Is that the same NCO instructor in both cards? And would he be a 2nd Corporal, with that one stripe?

 

 

 

2nd Corporal (substantive rank) and Acting Corporal (non-substantive appointment, as per Lance Corporal) both, wore one stripe in the RE.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Pat Atkins

I was wondering whether, as an instructor, he'd be more likely to be a 2nd-Corporal than an Acting Corporal (a new one one me - this thread is an education!)- have to say that while I appreciate the substantive/appointed difference, I don't really understand the practical differences between the two.

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kevinrowlinson
3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

2nd Corporal (substantive rank) and Acting Corporal (non-substantive appointment, as per Lance Corporal) both, wore one stripe in the RE.

 

I believe that to be incorrect.

 

The ranks and appointments, as I see them, for the RE are;

Sapper/Pioneer

Acting Second Corporal - appointment - 1 stripe

Second Corporal - rank - 1 stripe

Acting Corporal - appointment - 2 stripes

Corporal - rank - 2 stripes

 

This would, I think, certainly have been the case after ACI 1701 of 1916 when essentially all promotions would be acting ranks at home; 7. In future all promotion within the establishment of units serving at home will be acting rank only, except in a corps in which promotion is given on a general roster in which case promotion will continue to be governed by the existing rules for promotion within these corps.

 

 I see no reason why an Acting Corporal would not have worn 2 stripes.

 

Kevin

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FROGSMILE
2 hours ago, kevinrowlinson said:

 

I believe that to be incorrect.

 

The ranks and appointments, as I see them, for the RE are;

Sapper/Pioneer

Acting Second Corporal - appointment - 1 stripe

Second Corporal - rank - 1 stripe

Acting Corporal - appointment - 2 stripes

Corporal - rank - 2 stripes

 

This would, I think, certainly have been the case after ACI 1701 of 1916 when essentially all promotions would be acting ranks at home; 7. In future all promotion within the establishment of units serving at home will be acting rank only, except in a corps in which promotion is given on a general roster in which case promotion will continue to be governed by the existing rules for promotion within these corps.

 

 I see no reason why an Acting Corporal would not have worn 2 stripes.

 

Kevin

 

That’s interesting information Kevin and I have no reason to doubt what you say. I will look again at my original source (which is a book rather than an Army document) and report back.

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Terry_Reeves

I can confirm Kevin's list, although a new recruit might become confused by the single chevron of 2nd Cpl, substantive or acting and that of the L/Cpl.  RE ranks generally conform with that of most of the army, although some appointments are peculiar to the Corps.

 

TR

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FROGSMILE
On 25/05/2018 at 10:52, Terry_Reeves said:

I can confirm Kevin's list, although a new recruit might become confused by the single chevron of 2nd Cpl, substantive or acting and that of the L/Cpl.  RE ranks generally conform with that of most of the army, although some appointments are peculiar to the Corps.

 

TR

 

Yes Terry, although I understand that 2nd Corporal also applied to the AOC, ASC and RAMC at that time, if I recall correctly.  These are all mentioned in the various books of Clothing Regulations since the first edition of that document in 1881.  I have always thought it interesting that the specialist corps, including the RA, had a substantive rank at the one stripe level, whereas the cavalry and infantry did not.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Drew-1918
On 23/05/2018 at 22:46, FROGSMILE said:

 

Conductors and Army Schoolmasters were the first ever British Army 'Warrant Officers' (although Conductor as an ancient appointment had existed previously), initially on the Indian Establishment only, but after the Cardwell Reforms of 1870-1881, on the Home Establishment (Britain and Ireland) too.  You can read about Conductors here: http://www.rlc-conductor.info/Badge_of_Appointment.htm

 

First Class Staff Sergeant Majors were an alternative appointment to Conductor adopted by the supply organisation after it was separated from the stores organisation in the early 1890s.

 

Whichever he was the man in your photo would have been a linchpin in the process of supply.  Such men were the link between financial accountability and the actual delivery of stores to the frontline.

 

N.B.  Until recently Conductors considered themselves the most senior Warrant Officer appointment (this was true only in longevity, in fact ‘seniority’ was by date of appointment within class group), but all debate was rendered null and void by a single, Sergeant Major of the Army appointment in 2015.

Confusingly, for me at least, wasn't  the man appointed Army Sergeant Major in 2015 technically an officer at the time? Anyway, perhaps that is off the point.

 

Many thanks for the link. Thoroughly interesting reading

Chris. 

Edited by Drew-1918

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FROGSMILE
1 hour ago, Drew-1918 said:

Confusingly, for me at least, wasn't  the man appointed Army Sergeant Major in 2015 technically an officer at the time? Anyway, perhaps that is off the point.

 

 

Yes he was, it was unusual, but done because he had been selected for both a commission and the Army SM job simultaneously.  He was persuaded to take the latter job with a guaranteed commission at the end of his tour, backdated so that he would not be penalised by losing 2-years seniority to other WOs who took a commission on the same date.

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Terry_Reeves

 George Stanley Oxburgh MBE 1883-1955. Born, Plymouth.  Served in South African War. By 1911 he was EC (QMS) and Clerk to the Historical Section of the Committee of Imperial Defence. Later promoted to Superintending Clerk, he disembarked in France 14.10.14 and returned to his previous post in London on 1.9.16. He was commissioned on 21.9.16 and retired in 1935 as a Lt Colonel. He served the committee under , amongst others, Major General Sir General Ernest Swinton and Brigadier Sir James Edmonds.

IMG_5937.jpg

Edited by Terry_Reeves

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