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Gardenerbill
1 hour ago, mark holden said:

RND Howe Battalion. A B D Wait. Note cloth 'Howe' shoulder title

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Has this photograph been doctored (top)? The head looks dis-proportionally large compared to the body.  

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GWF1967
1 hour ago, mark holden said:

 

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Great card Mark.

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mark holden

The post card with Wolsley helmet is not doctored I just had to take the photo at an angle to avoid glare which slighty enlarged the head! 

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ddt1969

Percy Richard Dixon,  unknown Regiment.

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wainfleet
On 30/04/2018 at 04:03, Drew-1918 said:

Unknown corporal (?). My best guess is 19th London Regiment. I would welcome any comments as to the medals. Is it me or does his uniform appear a bit tatty. I wonder if he is back on leave to see his child.

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It's not a privately-purchased jacket, it's simply a prewar or very early war issue one. These are identifiable in photos from the somewhat uneven appearance of the rifle patches and the larger gap between these and the breast pockets. This one's a bit more obvious than usual but that's all. Serge from this period is more often than not made of lighter, thinner serge. 19th Londons with a Signaller qualification badge looks a good bet to me.  

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Drew-1918
On 10/05/2018 at 18:34, wainfleet said:

 

It's not a privately-purchased jacket, it's simply a prewar or very early war issue one. These are identifiable in photos from the somewhat uneven appearance of the rifle patches and the larger gap between these and the breast pockets. This one's a bit more obvious than usual but that's all. Serge from this period is more often than not made of lighter, thinner serge. 19th Londons with a Signaller qualification badge looks a good bet to me.  

Thank you very much indeed. That is really interesting detail. I did wonder about his stiffened peak forage cap, but from what you have now said, it makes sense to me why he would be wearing that. 

Cheers,

Chris

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GWF1967

Home Sweet Home!

Left - Bandsman William Heywood.  38444. B. 1893 Salford. Died Egypt. 12/10/1918. Pleurisy.

Right - Bandsman Walter Edward Simmons. 38440.  B. 1896 Leicester. 

 C. Coy.  2nd Garrison Battalion,  Royal Welsh Fusiliers.

Scan_20180511 (2).jpg

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FROGSMILE
On 11/05/2018 at 14:28, Drew-1918 said:

Thank you very much indeed. That is really interesting detail. I did wonder about his stiffened peak forage cap, but from what you have now said, it makes sense to me why he would be wearing that. 

Cheers,

Chris

 

I don’t agree that the jacket shown has been made at the RACD Pimlico, or by one of its many contractors during the war, Chris.  If you examine all the many other SD jackets in this thread you will be hard pushed to find another with such a large gap between chest pockets and shoulder patches, or indeed the other odd features mentioned.  If not made by a dhurzi (native tailor) in a foreign station then it might well have been made up by a battalion master tailor (a sergeant on the establishment of each infantry battalion), or if made pre-War (variations of the jacket began in 1902 for general issue) then by one of his boy assistants, who each had to make garments or parts of garments as a practical examination of skills, which when passed attracted a cash grant to the sergeant.  Pre-war Clothing Regulations also laid down that the sergeant tailor was to make some garments or parts of garments each year (over and above those issued by RACD) in order to keep up his skills.  Both the Imperial War Museum and National Army Museum ‘online collections’ contain images of examples of RACD made SD jackets of various patterns, and none have the unusual dimensions of the jacket in your photo, whether early War, or not.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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FROGSMILE
8 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Home Sweet Home!

Left - Bandsman William Heywood.  38444. B. 1893 Salford. Died Egypt. 12/10/1918. Pleurisy.

Right - Bandsman Walter Edward Simmons. 38440.  B. 1896 Leicester. 

 C. Coy.  2nd Garrison Battalion,  Royal Welsh Fusiliers.

Scan_20180511 (2).jpg

 

A very evocative and unusual photo of particular interest to me, thank you for posting it.

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GWF1967
On 5/12/2018 at 09:26, FROGSMILE said:

 

A very evocative and unusual photo of particular interest to me, thank you for posting it.

You're welcome. Glad you liked it.

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GWF1967

Cadet battalion?  Oxford photographer.

 This chap, l/h column, seems a little out of step.

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robins2
9 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Cadet battalion?  Oxford photographer.

 This chap, l/h column, seems a little out of step.

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Scan_20160330 (8).png

in step with the right hand group???

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charlie962

Out of step, bent right arm.. the sergeant is obviously about to 'correct' some poor cadet

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Drew-1918
On 5/12/2018 at 17:21, FROGSMILE said:

 

I don’t agree that the jacket shown has been made at the RACD Pimlico, or by one of its many contractors during the war, Chris.  If you examine all the many other SD jackets in this thread you will be hard pushed to find another with such a large gap between chest pockets and shoulder patches, or indeed the other odd features mentioned.  If not made by a dhurzi (native tailor) in a foreign station then it might well have been made up by a battalion master tailor (a sergeant on the establishment of each infantry battalion), or if made pre-War (variations of the jacket began in 1902 for general issue) then by one of his boy assistants, who each had to make garments or parts of garments as a practical examination of skills, which when passed attracted a cash grant to the sergeant.  Pre-war Clothing Regulations also laid down that the sergeant tailor was to make some garments or parts of garments each year (over and above those issued by RACD) in order to keep up his skills.  Both the Imperial War Museum and National Army Museum ‘online collections’ contain images of examples of RACD made SD jackets of various patterns, and none have the unusual dimensions of the jacket in your photo, whether early War, or not.

I see. Thanks for this further explanation. I have learnt a lot from this discussion. 

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Beechhill
3 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

I see. Thanks for this further explanation. I have learnt a lot from this discussion. 

Is it just me, clueless as I am, who feels the shoddily stitched medal band holds a clue here? 

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FROGSMILE
50 minutes ago, Beechhill said:

Is it just me, clueless as I am, who feels the shoddily stitched medal band holds a clue here? 

 

He may well have stitched the ribbons on himself if they were received when away from access to unit tailoring.  All soldiers were taught to make do and mend in a way that is unheard of today.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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GWF1967
9 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Out of step, bent right arm.. the sergeant is obviously about to 'correct' some poor cadet

I believe you're right. 'im, Sir.

Cadet..png

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GWF1967

R.E Cricket team. F/r has his tag on display.

 C.1911 has Mrs Margaret Sayles living at 52 Boyland Street, no "a.a" though.

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GWF1967

Post war R.E group. 1920. Several men wear trio ribbons, W.O front row still has overseas service stripes.

Scan_20180514 (5).jpg

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Beechhill
4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

He may well have stitched the ribbons on himself if they were received when away from access to unit tailoring.  All soldiers were taught to make do and mend in a way that is unheard of today.

Certainly a possibility. It does, however, draw points from the assumption of a tailored tunic. 

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FROGSMILE
8 hours ago, Beechhill said:

Certainly a possibility. It does, however, draw points from the assumption of a tailored tunic. 

 

The specs for factory made, jackets SD were fairly prescriptive, albeit that they varied throughout the war and subsequently, but the shape of, and spacing between shoulder patches (when they existed) and pocket tops were within certain limits and included one or more pleats or tucks.  The jacket shown is way off the chart and quite crude in comparison.  The opportunity to compare with other jackets that illuminate these variations is rife within this thread. I don’t think that the medal ribbons can be taken as particular evidence one way or another really.

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Beechhill
1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The specs for factory made, jackets SD were fairly prescriptive, albeit that they varied throughout the war and subsequently, but the shape of, and spacing between shoulder patches (when they existed) and pocket tops were within certain limits and included one or more pleats or tucks.  The jacket shown is way off the chart and quite crude in comparison.  The opportunity to compare with other jackets that illuminate these variations is rife within this thread. I don’t think that the medal ribbons can be taken as particular evidence one way or another really.

I bow to your superior knowledge (how on earth you carry all that and still manage to tie your shoes is beyond me). My point was that simple or makeshift stitching of ribbons, insignia etc. are often seen on "frontline" tunics that were changed often due to damage and wear. A tailored tunic would probably be treated with more respect and care. 

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FROGSMILE
4 hours ago, Beechhill said:

I bow to your superior knowledge (how on earth you carry all that and still manage to tie your shoes is beyond me). My point was that simple or makeshift stitching of ribbons, insignia etc. are often seen on "frontline" tunics that were changed often due to damage and wear. A tailored tunic would probably be treated with more respect and care. 

 

What knowledge I have is purely because British Army uniforms (including SD) were an intimate part of my life from age 13 to 55, including some time as a quartermaster that required constant liaison with both, military and contract tailors, as well as, later on, working as a logistics staff officer.  I can understand your reasoning and perception of a ‘tailored jacket’, but at that time there was a gulf of difference between the quality of tailoring put into a privately commissioned bespoke uniform for an officer and the rough and ready tailoring of a soldier’s field uniform in a regimental tailoring workshop, or (in India) a unit bazaar employing dhurzis.  In the lead up to WW1 these were presided over by the Sergeant, Master Tailor (one of the battalions HQ staff sergeants), who with his small team of boy soldiers (officially aged 14-17) undergoing tailoring training (others were trainee shoemakers, drummers, and musicians) repaired, or altered uniforms and constructed garments, especially for any odd sized men.  All of that said, we will never know the true story of the garment shown and I can only offer an informed opinion based on past experience.  I agree with your comment regarding the makeshift stitching of ribbons and rank badges on frontline uniform, although hand stitching by soldiers was often surprisingly neat.  Before the war many infantry units in particular had sewing societies and these are even mentioned in clothing regulations of the period as being entitled to certain discarded cloth wrapping material at public expense (i.e. it was ‘written off’).

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Drew-1918

5afc292c1e344_WW1GroupFront1.jpg.2235dd8e8f6f575d963bd6eedb0a2520.jpg

A group of ASC Territorials, and an RAMC man, some time at the start of the war. 

On the back:

“Miss C.[?] D. Wenham

28 Frant Road,

Thornton Heath,

Croydon, Surrey”

 

No. 264

Many thanks for your G C[?] received this evening. This photo is not very good and only three of the fellows including myself have signed for foreign service and the balance have been sent to London. Will probably be home for 48 hours one day next week. Am writing you a letter this evening.

With best regards,

Ted”

(Stamp ripped off and postmark illegible). 

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FROGSMILE
15 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Post war R.E group. 1920. Several men wear trio ribbons, W.O front row still has overseas service stripes.

Scan_20180514 (5).jpg

 

An interesting photo, notice how the WOI seated at far right wears both a Sam Browne belt and a superior cloth (officers' quality) version of the Service Dress jacket and trousers.  The WO1 to the left in the same row (also with Sam Browne) has instead a tailored version (collar) of the standard OR's SD jacket and trousers.

 

Edited by FROGSMILE

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