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MBrockway

As regards the jovial chap ...

5ab6641d95bb0_1-KRRCSerjeantsMess(probably)1918-1919-possRQMS01PalDrew-1918.jpg.e5eab299cf380a6a66125357a92ac0e9.jpg

 

His badge definitely has a hint of wreath around it ...

5ab664525567b_Rank-possRQMS.jpg.77db3fe2df11d9886567753f3b0fd769.jpg  5ab664517a378_Rankbadges-WOIIRQMS(1918-)-02aSimonButterworthBBF.jpg.dace1b7a52c26bdb596ed4d105fbe528.jpg

 

I've placed a Great War period drab worsted RQMS badge alongside it (© Simon Butterfield, British Badge Forum).

 

It's certainly more complex than the crown seen on the sleeve of the CSM at extreme RHS.

 

I'd say Frogsmile's suggestion of him being RQMS is spot on!

 

Mark

 

 

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FROGSMILE
59 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

 

Bingo!  That's definitely the double bugle badge!

 

GM                                                                          Worsted (drawing of)

5ab65b548eba7_RiflesBuglerbadgeJON188BBF.jpg.86fb437a90b72b426ac0c0abd0004d9e.jpg5ab65b555680b_RiflesBuglerbadgeRankAtAGlance226.jpg.4603d5415710ceb10bd6801dc1111520.jpg

[©JON188, British Badge Forum]                                                        [Rank At A Glance (Revised Ed., c.1915-16]

 

In this position, that would mean Bugle Major, and there'll be four chevrons below it, of which we can see the top two.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed.  Great detective work Mark, ably abetted by Chris’s well-targeted enlargements.  I too think that I can make out the laurels on the badge of our suspected RQMS, which means close to all the battalion HQ ‘Staff Serjeants’ are visible in the photo.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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MBrockway
Just now, FROGSMILE said:

 

Agreed.  Great detective work Mark, ably abetted by Chris’s well-targeted enlightenments.  I also think that I can make out the laurels on the badge of our suspected RQMS, which means close to all the battalion HQ ‘Staff Serjeants’ are visible in the photo.

 

Ooops!  The plot has thickened I'm afraid!

 

The Nominal Roll for 1/KRRC at end Dec 1919 (i.e. 2-5 months after they reformed at Rugeley) has an RQMS and an ORQMS.

 

The RQMS was awarded the MSM in January 1919 and our jovial chap only has a trio up.

 

Contributions over on the BBF by amongst others your good self and by David, leave some uncertainty over whether the ORQMS would also have worn the crown in wreath badge after AO 309 of 1918.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Incidentally, the WO's on the Dec Roll run to - RSM, BM, RQMS, ORQMS, CSMIM (i.e. Instructor in Musketry), 1 x CSM on Battalion HQ, 4 x CSM's in the Coys - so some ten Other Ranks riflemen in the battalion we might expect to be wearing corded boss cap badges.  My estimate of seven above was a little light!

 

The Roll omits Colour Serjeants, nor is the Bugle Major listed, supporting my observations that his substantive rank was below WO II.

 

I should also add that 2/KRRC were also reforming at Rugeley Camp from Aug to Nov 1919 (aside from 11 days in Sep/Oct guarding railway facilities during the Railway Strike).  Obviously visitors at the Serjeants' Mess from the other battalion would not be unusual.

 

Mark

 

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FROGSMILE
On 24/03/2018 at 15:32, MBrockway said:

 

Ooops!  The plot has thickened I'm afraid!

 

The Nominal Roll for 1/KRRC at end Dec 1919 (i.e. 2-5 months after they reformed at Rugeley) has an RQMS and an ORQMS.

 

The RQMS was awarded the MSM in January 1919 and our jovial chap only has a trio up.

 

Contributions over on the BBF by amongst others your good self and by David, leave some uncertainty over whether the ORQMS would also have worn the crown in wreath badge after AO 309 of 1918.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Incidentally, the WO's on the Dec Roll run to - RSM, BM, RQMS, ORQMS, CSMIM (i.e. Instructor in Musketry), 1 x CSM on Battalion HQ, 4 x CSM's in the Coys - so some ten Other Ranks riflemen in the battalion we might expect to be wearing corded boss cap badges.  My estimate of seven above was a little light!

 

The Roll omits Colour Serjeants, nor is the Bugle Major listed, supporting my observations that his substantive rank was below WO II.

 

I should also add that 2/KRRC were also reforming at Rugeley Camp from Aug to Nov 1919 (aside from 11 days in Sep/Oct guarding railway facilities during the Railway Strike).  Obviously visitors at the Serjeants' Mess from the other battalion would not be unusual.

 

Mark

 

 

That’s interesting Mark, it seems likely that the man concerned is the ORQMS then.

 

I did not comment at the time regarding the ORQMS rank/appointment badge conundrum, but have since come to believe that as no caveat was mentioned anywhere in the regulations then we should assume that the differential (previously 8-point star) was abandoned and both RQMS and an ORC ranking as a QMS, wore the exact same WOII badge.

 

I think you are right that the Bugle Major is ranked as a plain Sergeant.  You will recall that some years earlier both Drum Major and Bugle Major had had their status lowered and were retitled as ‘Sergeant Drummer’ and ‘Sergeant Bugler’, respectively.  That situation had yet to be reversed at the time of the photo.

 

P.S.  Speaking of David has reminded me that I have not seen him post, or heard from him by email for many weeks.  I know that his health has not been the best recently, I hope that he is well.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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charlie962

A photo like that and the expert analysis is worth a thread on its own. Well done.

Charlie

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Drew-1918

I am not quite sure, but I thought the sergeant in the following image might feature at the front on the far left in the first photograph I posted. However, if that is so, he is missing his 14 Star/14-15 Star in one of the shots. The officer and sergeant in this photograph are sat together in the group shot below. This is not the Sidney Springate I mentioned before but it came with his photos, which I will post later. 

 

IMG_0062.JPG.74fcd99638a4cd6f58a7c52fa39970ff.JPG

 

IMG_1003.PNG.0dd080a8bfed87f933940a54a88f96be.PNG

 

IMG_1002.PNG.d8dd7f3d744dc79456450cb0617a6ef3.PNG

 

IMG_0044.JPG.6553059870b1d33d390ee6944855c4a5.JPG

 

Apologies, there are no more photos of the 'Sergeant's Mess'. Let me know if any close-ups are required. 

 

Regards,

 

Chris

Edited by Drew-1918

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stiletto_33853
On 3/24/2018 at 10:54, Drew-1918 said:

You are right! He did transfer into the KRRC. However, I couldn't find him when I looked in the group photos. I will defer to keener eyes once I can get the images online.

 

He was Sidney P. Springate, 2421, 390430, 1st QVR, 69946 KRRC. I found his medal card and ICRC records, but have not had chance to search for other evidence yet. 

 

Many thanks again your posts were most illuminating. 

 

Chris

Mark,

 

No 1920 renumbering it looks like?? I would look at the large number of men who were transferred into the KRRC/RB's at the end of the war for administration purposes just prior to demobilisation, there were a lot of them, who had never served in either Regiment before but whose original Regiment had affiliations. The KRRC number certainly falls in that number range

 

Andy

Edited by stiletto_33853

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Pat Atkins
1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

A photo like that and the expert analysis is worth a thread on its own. Well done.

Charlie

I'll second that - some great knowledge and analysis on display, very informative stuff. Congratulations to all concerned. 

 

Pat

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charlie962
3 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

but I thought the sergeant in the following image might feature at the front on the far left in the first photograph I posted

Not so sure. Ears seem different and given that Star ribbon was issued before BWM/Vm it doesn't seem likely.

But these two definitely same man.

 

Sgt1.JPG.436ba36696e46a6dbb1a3b9c8e18d8d9.JPGSgt2.JPG.2ba414307ed02778f4ae50294a37f4e3.JPG

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Drew-1918
5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Not so sure. Ears seem different and given that Star ribbon was issued before BWM/Vm it doesn't seem likely.

But these two definitely same man.

 

Sgt1.JPG.436ba36696e46a6dbb1a3b9c8e18d8d9.JPGSgt2.JPG.2ba414307ed02778f4ae50294a37f4e3.JPG

A very good point! I see what you mean. Cheers. 

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FROGSMILE
8 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

I am not quite sure, but I thought the sergeant in the following image might feature at the front on the far left in the first photograph I posted. However, if that is so, he is missing his 14 Star/14-15 Star in one of the shots. The officer and sergeant in this photograph are sat together in the group shot below. This is not the Sidney Springate I mentioned before but it came with his photos, which I will post later. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes we 

 

Apologies, there are no more photos of the 'Sergeant's Mess'. Let me know if any close-ups are required. 

 

Regards,

 

Chris

 

I suspect that the junior officer (subaltern) has been appointed as Camp Commandant and in the group photo is surrounded by so-called ‘HQ Details’, who were the sanitary and administrative men (and in this case women too) who were required to operate the camp services .  If so the sergeant would be his fixer and disciplinary man.  Alternatively he might be the battalion’s Adjutant, but that seems less likely.  He has a wound stripe and two years overseas service.  His rather sombre demeanour and seemingly vacant gaze bespeaks personal suffering, or a troubled mind methinks.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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MBrockway

Away from my books for weekend. Looking forward to getting my teeth into some more ID’s once I’m back home again.

 

Mark

 

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Drew-1918
9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I suspect that the junior officer (subaltern) has been appointed as Camp Commandant and in the group photo is surrounded by so-called ‘HQ Details’, who were the sanitary and administrative men (and in this case women too) who were required to operate the camp services .  If so the sergeant would be his fixer and disciplinary man.  Alternatively he might be the battalion’s Adjutant, but that seems less likely.  He has a wound stripe and two years overseas service.  His rather sombre demeanour and seemingly vacant gaze bespeaks personal suffering, or a troubled mind methinks.

 

Thanks very much. More fascinating detail. 

 

Chris

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mark holden

Manchester Regiment POW

IMG_8364.JPG

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MBrockway
On 24/03/2018 at 10:54, Drew-1918 said:

You are right! He did transfer into the KRRC. However, I couldn't find him when I looked in the group photos. I will defer to keener eyes once I can get the images online.

 

He was Sidney P. Springate, 2421, 390430, 1st QVR, 69946 KRRC. I found his medal card and ICRC records, but have not had chance to search for other evidence yet. 

 

Many thanks again your posts were most illuminating. 

 

Chris

 

On 25/03/2018 at 12:10, stiletto_33853 said:

Mark,

 

No 1920 renumbering it looks like?? I would look at the large number of men who were transferred into the KRRC/RB's at the end of the war for administration purposes just prior to demobilisation, there were a lot of them, who had never served in either Regiment before but whose original Regiment had affiliations. The KRRC number certainly falls in that number range

 

Andy

 

2421 Pte Sidney SPRINGATE was repatriated from the German POW camp at Friedrichsfeld arriving at Hull on 27 Nov 1918.

 

His POW records show him as being in D Coy, QVR and that he was captured on 01 Jul 1916 at GOMMECOURT having being wounded from a shot above the heart.

 

He was born on 24 Feb 1893 at Chatham, Kent.  Next of kin is listed as Mrs Springate, 33 Parkhill Road, Hampstead.

 

As Andy has said, his KRRC Service Number falls in a range that Andy & I have identified as being very late war (or later) and that was typically allocated to men from the various London Regiment battalions with a tradition of affiliation to the KRRC or the RB.

 

The vast majority of men in this range do not have a KRRC or RB battalion listed, suggesting they never fought overseas in a KRRC or RB battalion, despite being given a KRRC or RB service number.  Certainly Sydney never fought overseas as a KRRC rifleman.

 

These men appear to have been transferred to the two Rifle regiments for demobilization and dispersal.  Andy & I are still researching this, but our hypothesis is that it was more efficient to have all the London Regt men processed en masse rather than by battalion and they were therefore split between the KRRC and RB, and probably also the Royal Fusiliers, possibly the East Surreys and Royal West Kents.

 

Mark

 

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FROGSMILE

That makes complete sense to me Mark and I know from Army administrative experience pre-computers that it is typical of measures that are likely to have been taken.

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MBrockway
5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That makes complete sense to me Mark and I know from Army administrative experience pre-computers that it is typical of measures that are likely to have been taken.

 

It's an example of the pitfalls of not knowing the full detail of the KRRC/RB numbering scheme: most Pals with a basic knowledge of the schema would predict an all numeric SN to imply a rifleman enlisted as a Regular, but these 6xxxx range numbers are in fact nearly all administrative transfers from the London Regt TF battalions dating from after the Armistice.

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GWF1967

No.1 Platoon. "A" Coy.  8th Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Pirbright.  1915

Scan_20180328 (3).jpg

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Drew-1918

 

On 27/03/2018 at 23:16, MBrockway said:

 

It's an example of the pitfalls of not knowing the full detail of the KRRC/RB numbering scheme: most Pals with a basic knowledge of the schema would predict an all numeric SN to imply a rifleman enlisted as a Regular, but these 6xxxx range numbers are in fact nearly all administrative transfers from the London Regt TF battalions dating from after the Armistice.

 

On 25/03/2018 at 20:10, stiletto_33853 said:

Mark,

 

No 1920 renumbering it looks like?? I would look at the large number of men who were transferred into the KRRC/RB's at the end of the war for administration purposes just prior to demobilisation, there were a lot of them, who had never served in either Regiment before but whose original Regiment had affiliations. The KRRC number certainly falls in that number range

 

Andy

 

Thanks very much Andy and Mark for sharing your research on these 'paper transfers'. I think I may have seen a mass of these late KRRC transfers in a nominal roll for the QVR I was trying to compile. I will have to check and get back to you if my memory is correct.

 
It is not the same thing, but it reminds me a little of those transfers at the IBD, at the start of many men's service in France, where men are stamped for a certain unit for a limited time, but are never really badged up and sent to them. 
 
Many thanks again,
 
ChriS
 

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Drew-1918

Photographs of Rifleman Springate mentioned previously. 

 

IMG_0036.JPG.8ea99a36eade6e862f30b5a810c223a3.JPG

"From

2421 Rfn Springate S. P.

Queen Victoria's Rifles

British Prisoner of War

No. 55800 Barrack 32

Friedricksfeld Bei Wessel

Germany"

 

IMG_0042.JPG.ad63bdedf3008e9c543607f7b01d06f3.JPG

With Pals

 

IMG_0040.JPG.a7d01ef26bb30b9c127600ec4b5293fc.JPG

After repatriation

 

Some other photographs in his collection:

 

IMG_0066.JPG.150a9221814844f1890fe2ad079185c3.JPG

I cannot be sure, but I think this is a Queen Vic with the two 'Artists'. The voids in his cap badge look slightly more off-centre than with a bugle, and the arms of the Maltese cross appear to lack any battle honours. In addition, he appears with two other territorials which might be an indicator as well. 

IMG_1094.PNG.862fd1bafc9876d4f32a9cbb34bcc85d.PNG

 

IMG_0068.JPG.321a56503feab978081bdd446096f729.JPG

 

IMG_0070.JPG.50e44b14b14f6b6c2187eaa432e231ae.JPG

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MBrockway

Fantastic collection Chris.

 

I agree with you on the QVR plus 2 x Artists' Rifles pic too.

 

Mark

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GWF1967

Chauncey Earl Moulton. B. 1891, South Walsington, Norfolk, Ontario.

 WR/601980. Inland Water Transport, Royal Engineers. 

Scan_20180328 (2).jpg

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Drew-1918
6 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Fantastic collection Chris.

 

I agree with you on the QVR plus 2 x Artists' Rifles pic too.

 

Mark

Thanks, Mark. I was lucky to find them.

 

12 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Chauncey Earl Moulton. B. 1891, South Walsington, Norfolk, Ontario.

 WR/601980. Inland Water Transport, Royal Engineers. 

Very nice photograph. Are they Royal Engineer buttons?

 

Chris

 

 

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GWF1967
17 minutes ago, Drew-1918 said:

Very nice photograph. Are they Royal Engineer buttons?

 

Chris

 

 

Yup, and yup .

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GWF1967

Tug of War teams.

Norfolk Regt. - "White. Photographer. Felixtowe".

Essex Regt. - "Emeny. Photographer. Felixtowe".

  Photographs taken 1917 going by the o/s chevrons.

 

Scan_20180321 (3).jpg

Scan_20180321 (2).jpg

Edited by GWF1967

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