Muerrisch Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 What an intriguing group. Post Great War, perhaps a RSM [possibly out since Mons] and bandmaster of KOYLI , a couple of KOYLI WO IIs and a few KOYI other ranks, some Rifles ...... possibly one of the London units, and some very unusual sitting on knees. One young lady is having none of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Muerrisch said: What an intriguing group. Post Great War, perhaps a RSM [possibly out since Mons] and bandmaster of KOYLI , a couple of KOYLI WO IIs and a few KOYI other ranks, some Rifles ...... possibly one of the London units, and some very unusual sitting on knees. One young lady is having none of it! KRRC or a London Regt battalion rather than KOYLI I believe. The WOs all wearing a cord boss type badge. They are all SNCOs and the group very likely shows a ‘survivors’ photo around 1918-19. Interestingly at rear right stands the RQMS, who does not wear a cord boss for some reason. Perhaps he has only acting rank. The women are very likely Sergeants’ Mess staff, which along with the Cookhouse was one of several key roles for the QMAAC. Edited 21 February , 2018 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 Yes I believe you are correct. I thought I saw KOYLI bugle on the bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryJohn Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 I think that the young lady who 'is having none of it' is the senior female rank, which is why she is sitting next to the RSM (and not on anybody's knee!). I believe I can see three inverted chevrons on her right sleeve, which would make her a Forewoman, the highest non-commissioned rank. C_J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: I think that the “WAAC” title is actually QMAAC: Queen Mary’s Auxiliary Army Corps. The WAAC existed in India. I didn't know that. Thanks. Now that I look at it, this change may be reflected in the shoulder titles: Possibly four letters that start with 'W'. Appears to be five letters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 Thanks very much everyone for your comments. I thought KRRC rather than London Rgt. because of the shorter, straight metal shoulder title: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: KRRC or a London Regt battalion rather than KOYLI I believe. The WOs all wearing a cord boss type badge. They are all SNCOs and the group very likely shows a ‘survivors’ photo around 1918-19. Interestingly at rear right stands the RQMS, who does not wear a cord boss for some reason. Perhaps he has only acting rank. The women are very likely Sergeants’ Mess staff, which along with the Cookhouse was one of several key roles for the QMAAC. If it is a survivors photo it has to be rather late as all men have 2 or 3 campaign ribbons and the BWM VM lists were slow to be issued. Unless those believing to be entitled put them up. This is one of my many knowledge gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 29 minutes ago, CountryJohn said: I think that the young lady who 'is having none of it' is the senior female rank, which is why she is sitting next to the RSM (and not on anybody's knee!). I believe I can see three inverted chevrons on her right sleeve, which would make her a Forewoman, the highest non-commissioned rank. C_J Many thanks. Here is a close-up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 12 minutes ago, Muerrisch said: If it is a survivors photo it has to be rather late as all men have 2 or 3 campaign ribbons and the BWM VM lists were slow to be issued. Unless those believing to be entitled put them up. This is one of my many knowledge gaps. Yes I agree it could be later, although I don’t think later than 1919 as demobilisation was well underway by then. My personal take on ‘survivors’ photos is any group photo after Nov 1918 where everyone appears joyous or overly cheerful. 24 minutes ago, Drew-1918 said: Thanks very much everyone for your comments. I thought KRRC rather than London Rgt. because of the shorter, straight metal shoulder title: Yes I think KRRC, Drew, the scarlet felt backing was not worn by many of the London’s, although I believe the 16th did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 (edited) On 22/02/2018 at 06:35, FROGSMILE said: Yes I think KRRC, Drew, the scarlet felt backing was not worn by many of the London’s, although I believe the 16th did. The 16th definitely did, as you say. I have noticed that with this type of Maltese cross, dealers will often pencil on the back something along the lines of, 'KRRC because of felt backing', as if it could not possibly be any London battalion. However, I am pretty sure I have also seen the 6th, 9th and 12th battalions with this backing in photographs of the period. Admittedly, it seems to show up less often with these units. No argument with this photograph, of course, but I will check and post if I have anything, in case it is of interest. Chris Edit: I meant to have typed '11th Bn' above, not '12th'. However, now I think of it, them too. Edited 15 March , 2018 by Drew-1918 Correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 February , 2018 Share Posted 21 February , 2018 20 minutes ago, Drew-1918 said: The 16th definitely did, as you say. I have noticed that with this type of Maltese cross, dealers will often pencil on the back something along the lines of, 'KRRC because of felt backing', as if it could not possibly be any London battalion. However, I am pretty sure I have also seen the 6th, 9th and 12th battalions with this backing in photographs of the period. Admittedly, it seems to show up less often with these units. No argument with this photograph, of course, but I will check and post if I have anything, in case it is of interest. Chris Yes, I have seen some other London’s that had an association with the KRRC (often ex VBs) wear a red felt backing, but less consistently. As you say, I feel the photo definitely shows KRRC, although perhaps a Reserve battalion, as the average age seems on the older side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 RAMC L/Cpl. & City of London Policeman. Not sure about the medal ribbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 Some lovely Knitwear on show as these R.A chaps muck out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 Just now, Toby Brayley said: Some lovely Knitwear on show as these R.A chaps muck out! Issued cardigans, Toby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 Just now, FROGSMILE said: Issued cardigans, Toby. Indeed! but the only shot I actually have of them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 (edited) An unknown Military Mounted Policeman (same chap). Mid 1916. The backdrop to image 1 features in many similar portraits , is there a chance anyone can identify it ? The second image of him in his "goat skin" is to good not to share and wearing it on duty too! Edited 22 February , 2018 by Toby Brayley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 2 hours ago, Drew-1918 said: RAMC L/Cpl. & City of London Policeman. Not sure about the medal ribbon. These two seem like brothers, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 18 hours ago, CountryJohn said: I think that the young lady who 'is having none of it' is the senior female rank, which is why she is sitting next to the RSM (and not on anybody's knee!). I believe I can see three inverted chevrons on her right sleeve, which would make her a Forewoman, the highest non-commissioned rank. C_J She is probably the equivalent of the Mess Sergeant, C_J, and running the mess administration and overseeing the staff. That function always involves close association with the RSM in his role as President of the Mess. The photo almost tells us a story I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryJohn Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 (edited) Yes, indeed, Frogsmile, and I wonder how the gentleman in civilian dress (canteen manager or equivalent, perhaps?) with a proprietal arm around her, and another young lady on his knee, fits into that narrative? I notice the forewoman / mess sergeant has creased her hat US Army-style - I don't know much about QMAAC dress regulations and customs: was that a common practice? C_J Edited 22 February , 2018 by CountryJohn Edited for typo practise / practice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, CountryJohn said: Yes, indeed, Frogsmile, and I wonder how the gentleman in civilian dress (canteen manager or equivalent, perhaps?) with a proprietal arm around her, and another young lady on his knee, fits into that narrative? I notice the forewoman / mess sergeant has creased her hat US Army-style - I don't know much about QMAAC dress regulations and customs: was that a common practise? C_J The hat creasing was not that unusual, as I have seen it in other photos, but seemingly not official. It would have been seen as a Boy Scout and NZ style rather than US I suspect, as NZ soldiers were seen around Britain with their very similarly styled hats and they had been introduced to Boy Scouts by Baden Powell, who had seen them in South Africa. It’s interesting what you say about canteen manager, etc. over the course of the war battalion establishments were reduced and Mess Sergeant posts often replaced on home establishments (reserve battalions etc) with civilians. Edited 22 February , 2018 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: These two seem like brothers, Chris. Yes, I thought the same. I'm sorry, I don't have any further information on this one. 10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: She is probably the equivalent of the Mess Sergeant, C_J, and running the mess administration and overseeing the staff. That function always involves close association with the RSM in his role as President of the Mess. The photo almost tells us a story I think. 9 hours ago, CountryJohn said: Yes, indeed, Frogsmile, and I wonder how the gentleman in civilian dress (canteen manager or equivalent, perhaps?) with a proprietal arm around her, and another young lady on his knee, fits into that narrative? I notice the forewoman / mess sergeant has creased her hat US Army-style - I don't know much about QMAAC dress regulations and customs: was that a common practice? C_J Regarding the man in civvies: my first thought was a former comrade who had perhaps been wounded. I know he has no SWB, but there might be a reason for that. After all, the war was now over. You might call me naive, but another possibility with the QMAAC that I thought about was that there is some sort of family connection. 1) That is quite risqué behaviour for those times isnt it? Especially as it is right under the nose of the RSM. He is a regular, isn't he? 2) I have a photograph of my great grandfather on holiday with his sisters and with his future wife. One or two of his sisters are leaning on him and have their arms drapped round his neck. My great grandmother is respectfully distant. It just made me wonder. Just another set of possibilities and I could well be wrong. Chris Edited 23 February , 2018 by Drew-1918 Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 22 February , 2018 Share Posted 22 February , 2018 1. Left. M2/188791 Thomas Bernard Stamps A.S.C. 2. Thomas Bernard Stamps seated - right. The man next to him wears a private purchase wrist tag. The man back row, second from left, and the man at far right, both have issue tags, worn in a non-issue style. Back row middle has his issue clasp knife hanging from his belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 February , 2018 Share Posted 23 February , 2018 1 hour ago, Drew-1918 said: Yes, I thought the same. I'm sorry, I don't have any further information on this one. Regarding the man in civvies: my first thought was a former comrade who had perhaps been wounded. I know he has no SWB, but there might be a reason for that. After all, the war was now over. You might call me naive, but another possibility with the QMAAC that I thought about was that there is some sort of family connection. 1) That is quite risqué behaviour for those times isnt it? Especially as it is right under the nose of the RSM. He is a regular, isn't he? 2) I have a photograph of my great grandfather on holiday with his sisters and with his future wife. One or two of his sisters are leaning on him and have their arms drapped round his neck. My great grandmother his respectfully distant. It just made me wonder. Just another set of possibilities and I could well be wrong. Chris You make some good hypotheses Chris. I think the RSM is indeed a regular. As for risqué behaviour I think we should not underestimate the intimate and trusting friendships that tend to develop in closed institutions like the Army, especially in wartime. It leads to very different social attitudes on the part of those closely concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 February , 2018 Share Posted 23 February , 2018 46 minutes ago, GWF1967 said: 1. Left. M2/188791 Thomas Bernard Stamps A.S.C. 2. Thomas Bernard Stamps seated - right. The man next to him wears a private purchase wrist tag. The man back row, second from left, and the man at far right, both have issue tags, worn in a non-issue style. Back row middle has his issue clasp knife hanging from his belt. Very evocative of the time. So many of the fit and unscathed ASC from early in the war ended up being transferred into the infantry during 1917-18, only to lose their lives towards the end of the war, especially during the ferocious German offensive of March 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 23 February , 2018 Share Posted 23 February , 2018 A fresh faced anonymous member of the Royal Artillery, a bombardier? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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