FROGSMILE Posted 14 February , 2019 Share Posted 14 February , 2019 16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Clothing Regulations stipulated that men (regulars) joining battalions warned for overseas posting were not to be issued with tunics, but should wear frocks in lieu. If to be fitted with a warm lining (wool) this was to be at soldier’s own expense. I’ve just rechecked this and found that it refers to men who have returned home from a foreign station, but are warned for another and so are to retain their foreign service frock rather than be issued a home service tunic. This means that the issue of home service frocks in lieu of tunics to trainees early in 1914 is unexplained given that the frocks were withdrawn in 1902. Presumably the stocks were retained in store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 14 February , 2019 Share Posted 14 February , 2019 (edited) On 14/02/2019 at 01:33, Andrew Upton said: That last sentence speaks volumes. It does. Joe and I looked at this in 'real life' (i.e. off the forum) and I turned up some Hansard entries about "whether old, shrunken, threadbare, patched and darned clothing is being issued to the troops serving in France", quoting Army Council guidance about the utilisation of renovated service dress. The parliamentary response was that it (the ACI) "had reference to home commands only". With respect to Mark, the man in question wearing a jacket that belonged to someone else as a result of a mix-up after cleaning is a leap from a refurbished item. Simplifieds are famously of generally poorer quality than the 1908/ 1915 iterations - some were very shoddy indeed - and their poor survival rate must be a function of this, as well as there being fewer made. I'm not convinced they would have stood up to renovation much: much less in/ by 1918. My feeling is that if if 4% (at least, the US product alone) of all SD ordered constituted Simplifieds, then I don't see why 4% of those held in depots at the war's end shouldn't be Simplifieds either. Admittedly, only 50-odd thousand jackets, but enough to see a new ones pop up over the years. Cheers, GT. Edited 15 February , 2019 by Grovetown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 14 February , 2019 Share Posted 14 February , 2019 (edited) From the Museum Archive. Military Police Record Office. 1919. There are a few Simplified S.D worn here at this very late stage. I do suspect that these jackets were probably surviving original issue to them as the owners appear never to have gone overseas. Also of interests are the old sweats still wearing the Edward VII cap badge. Regards Toby Edited 14 February , 2019 by Toby Brayley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 14 February , 2019 Share Posted 14 February , 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 14 February , 2019 Share Posted 14 February , 2019 Hi, I am totally unfamiliar with English uniform regulations. As far as I have understood this, this thread is about changing types of uniforms and that old types were used where new ones were unavailable. Of course these things happend in the German army as well. In addition same type German uniforms were catagorised in 5 classes (1.-5. Garnitur) according to their state of wear. Whereas 1st Garnitur was used for parades and on watch, 2nd to wear in public, 3rd/4th Garnitur was only to be used for dirty work within the confines of the barracks and sometimes 4th had patches on it that were sewn on to repair the tunics. 5th was basiclly only for spare parts. Was there something like this in the British army as well? Obviously photos of tunics 3rd grade and lower are hard to find, here is a patched one grade 4 of a German infantry man. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 February , 2019 Share Posted 14 February , 2019 38 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said: Although we cannot see their LRB shoulder flashes, I suspect the chap behind this corporal, as well as the man standing to that man's left are also LRB. They certainly look like rifles buttons to me. Interesting contrast with the Military Police corporal's buttons, which appear to be the flatter, leather 'football' buttons? What do the Pals think? If we agree, then I'll link this image into the Rifles Buttons topic as it would be a very effective comparison of the two 'dark' buttons, and a useful exemplar for photo interpretation. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 14 February , 2019 Share Posted 14 February , 2019 (edited) Just now, MBrockway said: Although we cannot see their LRB shoulder flashes, I suspect the chap behind this corporal, as well as the man standing to that man's left are also LRB. They are indeed LRB. There are 5 in the photograph in total. Just now, MBrockway said: Interesting contrast with the Military Police corporal's buttons, which appear to be the flatter, leather 'football' buttons? What do the Pals think? I Good spot! On the original they are without doubt the economy leather G.S buttons, also worn by the standing Sergeant with the wound stripe. Regards Toby Edited 14 February , 2019 by Toby Brayley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 February , 2019 Share Posted 14 February , 2019 ... also the Warrant Officer sitting on our left hand side. A few others sprinkled about too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 Left. Gnr. William Frederick Hardman. 1614. T.F. Royal Field Artillery. 846298. C/307 Bde. R.F.A. Right. Pte. Arthur John Hardman. 127403. 19th Coy. Royal Army Medical Corps. Laboratory Attendant. Prees Heath Hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 15 February , 2019 Share Posted 15 February , 2019 Left. Pte. Arthur Thomas Hawkes. 31114. C.Coy. 8th Somerset Light Infantry. Right. Pte. Lionel Douglas Hawkes. 2219. S.L.I. - 574222. Royal Engineers. - 456140. R.A.M.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 16 February , 2019 Share Posted 16 February , 2019 On 14/02/2019 at 11:06, MBrockway said: Although we cannot see their LRB shoulder flashes, I suspect the chap behind this corporal, as well as the man standing to that man's left are also LRB. They certainly look like rifles buttons to me. Interesting contrast with the Military Police corporal's buttons, which appear to be the flatter, leather 'football' buttons? What do the Pals think? If we agree, then I'll link this image into the Rifles Buttons topic as it would be a very effective comparison of the two 'dark' buttons, and a useful exemplar for photo interpretation. Mark Toby very kindly gave permission for me to use his photo. See here for the result: Comparison of rifle & economy buttons in the Rifle Regiment Buttons topic Thanks Toby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 (edited) L/Cpl. Gordon L. Atkinson, No. 62122 Royal Engineers, 9th Scottish Division. Posted home 13/2/19 He is in the centre of the main picture. Close-up of insignia Edited 17 February , 2019 by Drew-1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Drew-1918 said: L/Cpl. Gordon L. Atkinson, No. 62122 Royal Engineers, 9th Scottish Division. Posted home 13/2/19 He is in the centre of the main picture. I thought I knew that face. Gordon Henry Atkinson served with 9th Signal Coy R.E. ( 1. Front left., The man front right is shown at the left hand end of the row behind Spr. Atkinson in your group. 2. Centre. 3. Middle row, right hand end.) He has a surviving service record on Ancestry. Edited 17 February , 2019 by GWF1967 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 The man on the right also features in your group, middle row, second from the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 (edited) The man on the right (a ‘Second Corporal’), seems to be a ‘linesman’, a mounted role, as he wears both bandolier and field boots, mounted duty, Edited 17 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: The man on the right (a ‘Second Corporal’), seems to be a ‘linesman’, a mounted role, as he wears both bandolier and field boots, mounted duty, Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Drew-1918 said: L/Cpl. Gordon L. Atkinson, No. 62122 Royal Engineers, 9th Scottish Division. Posted home 13/2/19 He is in the centre of the main picture. Close-up of insignia Great photo Drew. Looks like a 1918-19 ‘survivors photo’ to me. Several of the SNCOs ‘out since Mons’ going by the overseas stripes and 14/15 star ribbons. Perhaps taken in the Rhine Army zone? Edited 17 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 The RE Telegraphists group contains a 16 year minimum service man on the right [4 GC badges]. Even more interesting for me is the apparent total absence of badges to show their specialisation: a badge T in wreath certainly exists, of doubtful provenance, and there are those who ascribe it to telegraphists. Also good to see no crossed flags signaller badges. Impossible to prove a negative of course. ["tunneller" has also been advanced.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 46 minutes ago, Muerrisch said: The RE Telegraphists group contains a 16 year minimum service man on the right. I like how the soldier in question is clearly showing us that with pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: The man on the right (a ‘Second Corporal’), seems to be a ‘linesman’, a mounted role, as he wears both bandolier and field boots, mounted duty, I think you'll find, on closer inspection, it's an ankle boot being worn with a with a Stohwasser-type legging. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 February , 2019 Share Posted 17 February , 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Grovetown said: I think you'll find, on closer inspection, it's an ankle boot being worn with a with a Stohwasser-type legging. Cheers, GT. Yes, you’re right, ankle boots and gaiters/leggings. Not Stohwasser I don’t think, as their patented design had a spiral strap around the shin: 1. https://patents.google.com/patent/US632596?oq=stohwasser++winter+39+conduit+street 2. https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=18990701&CC=GB&NR=189910960A&KC=A Good spot though. It’s interesting that the joint inventor of the leggings was the son of a German/Austrian who set up as a tailor in London. The leggings are forever associated with his family name and yet like so many at the time he felt obliged to change his name to Stowe, despite half a life time as a member of the Honourable Artillery Company and retiring as a Lieutenant Colonel. He was also a Mason and senior figure in the London Chartered Company of Coach and Harness makers, which presumably is where he learned his leather work. Edited 17 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 18 February , 2019 Share Posted 18 February , 2019 21 hours ago, GWF1967 said: I thought I knew that face. Gordon Henry Atkinson served with 9th Signal Coy R.E. ( 1. Front left., The man front right is shown at the left hand end of the row behind Spr. Atkinson in your group. 2. Centre. 3. Middle row, right hand end.) He has a surviving service record on Ancestry. Many thanks indeed, very interesting stuff. It is funny how often these little coincidences can come up. I actually first bought a set of Atkinson's postcards which only really feature scenes in France and the U.K. The postcard I posted was from a completely different seller at a later date. Thanks too for the detail on the man. 17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Great photo Drew. Looks like a 1918-19 ‘survivors photo’ to me. Several of the SNCOs ‘out since Mons’ going by the overseas stripes and 14/15 star ribbons. Perhaps taken in the Rhine Army zone? Thanks a lot. I thought I understood the difference between the 1914 and 14/15 Stars, but upon reflection I note that they could both be awarded from the 5th August 1914. I know that you say 14/15 Star, but wouldn't the men in the photograph need to be wearing a red chevron to have been around since Mons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 February , 2019 Share Posted 18 February , 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Drew-1918 said: wouldn't the men in the photograph need to be wearing a red chevron to have been around since Mons? Yes indeed they would Drew, and I noticed that at least one of the SNCOs does appear to have a ‘first’ red stripe, which is what compelled my comment. I didn’t check the others meticulously though. Edited 18 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 18 February , 2019 Share Posted 18 February , 2019 I would be very grateful for any identification on this soldier's unit. Close-up of cap badge followed by background detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew-1918 Posted 18 February , 2019 Share Posted 18 February , 2019 6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Yes indeed they would Drew, and I noticed that at least one of the SNCOs does appear to have a ‘first’ red stripe, which is what compelled my comment. I didn’t check the others meticulously though. I see. I could not see any red stripe, but see where you were coming from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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