Drew-1918 #5576 Posted 16 May , 2018 "G. H. Q., 3rd Echelon, B.E.F., France Christmas, 1916 To my darling little Wifie With every loving wish From her Willie" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GWF1967 #5577 Posted 16 May , 2018 6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: An interesting photo, notice how the WOI seated at far right wears both a Sam Browne belt and a superior cloth (officers' quality) version of the Service Dress jacket and trousers. The WO1 to the left in the same row (also with Sam Browne) has instead a tailored version (collar) of the standard OR's SD jacket and trousers. Many thanks for your observations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GWF1967 #5578 Posted 16 May , 2018 Army Veterinary Corps. St Albans photographer. The Major is named front and back; I still can't read it though! Any suggestions welcomed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffnut453 #5579 Posted 17 May , 2018 (edited) Hi Folks, My dear old Mum is visiting and brought with her a cache of old family photos including a number of unidentified military personnel. I'm hoping I can narrow down the options if the kind members of this forum can help identify the regiments. Here's the first one...more to follow in subsequent posts. Might the cap badge be Royal Engineers? My family all comes from St.Helens and there was a Territorial Field Company formed at the Cropper's Hill Drill Hall in which a couple of relatives served. Edited 17 May , 2018 by Buffnut453 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FROGSMILE #5580 Posted 17 May , 2018 (edited) Yes, I think this first photo shows the badge of the RE. The rank is Second Corporal (one stripe), which in the RE was a substantive rank (for pay and pension) and not merely an appointment (probationary position). Edited 17 May , 2018 by FROGSMILE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toby Brayley #5581 Posted 17 May , 2018 (edited) 12th Lancer with "urgent" dispatch! Appears to be in Simplified S.D. 1915 Postmark on rear. 18 years service and a Boer War Veteran. Edited 17 May , 2018 by Toby Brayley Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toby Brayley #5582 Posted 17 May , 2018 ASC Men form a Road block. 1915 dated on rear. 1888 Bayonets. Thoughts on the Rifles? They are rigby nosed capped (hence the 1888) but look a little too short for CLLEs, they are also missing the foresight protector found on most CLLES. At first I thought Martini Enfields but a but a bolt is visible, a trick of the camera perhaps? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffnut453 #5583 Posted 17 May , 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Yes, I think this first photo shows the badge of the RE. The rank is Second Corporal (one stripe), which in the RE was a substantive rank (for pay and pension) and not merely an appointment (probationary position). Thanks Frogsmile. Based on the shape of the ears, the slightly dimpled chin and the general appearance, I think he may be this man, a cousin by marriage, who lived in the house opposite my Grandparents (and Great-Grandparents). He survived the war as a Cpl in the 1st West Lancs Field Coy. Edited 17 May , 2018 by Buffnut453 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffnut453 #5584 Posted 17 May , 2018 Here's the second of my "unknowns" from the family photo collection. I'm pretty sure it's another RE from 1st West Lancs Field Coy...but he has a rather splendid 'tache! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FROGSMILE #5585 Posted 17 May , 2018 33 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said: Thanks Frogsmile. Based on the shape of the ears, the slightly dimpled chin and the general appearance, I think he may be this man, a cousin by marriage, who lived in the house opposite my Grandparents (and Great-Grandparents). He survived the war as a Cpl in the 1st West Lancs Field Coy. The eyes are very distinctive too and I’m sure it’s the same man. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FROGSMILE #5586 Posted 17 May , 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, Buffnut453 said: Here's the second of my "unknowns" from the family photo collection. I'm pretty sure it's another RE from 1st West Lancs Field Coy...but he has a rather splendid 'tache! This man is a warrant officer of the RE. Before 1915 a unit’s Sergeant Major (RSM) wore such a badge, after that date it was company Sergeant Major (CSM) and the RSM wore a coat of arms badge. Edited 18 May , 2018 by FROGSMILE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffnut453 #5587 Posted 17 May , 2018 25 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: This man is a warrant officer of the RE. Before 1915 a unit’s Sergeant Major (RSM) wore such a badge, after that date it was s company Sergeant Major (CSM) and the RSM wore a coat of arms badge. Thanks Frogsmile. I suspected he was some flavour of RSM/CSM. That should make him easier to name, particularly if he did serve in 1st West Lancs Field Coy. I'll do some more digging elsewhere and see if anything emerges. Onto the third unknown, which is much harder because there's no cap badge and the image quality isn't great. The man appears to have some kind of metal name plate on his epaulette and a medal ribbon (DCM perhaps?). I'm not holding out much hope on this one, but am sharing just in case... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
themonsstar #5588 Posted 17 May , 2018 The medal ribbon looks like the Queens South African medal ribbon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffnut453 #5589 Posted 17 May , 2018 I wondered if it might be the Queen's South Africa Medal but the central stripe was darker than the ones on either side. I suppose that effect could be caused by filters applied to the lens when the picture was taken....maybe? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FROGSMILE #5590 Posted 17 May , 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Buffnut453 said: Thanks Frogsmile. I suspected he was some flavour of RSM/CSM. That should make him easier to name, particularly if he did serve in 1st West Lancs Field Coy. I'll do some more digging elsewhere and see if anything emerges. Onto the third unknown, which is much harder because there's no cap badge and the image quality isn't great. The man appears to have some kind of metal name plate on his epaulette and a medal ribbon (DCM perhaps?). I'm not holding out much hope on this one, but am sharing just in case... I think this man is a Lancashire Fusilier with one piece shoulder title, L.grenade.F As regards the Sergeant Major in the earlier photo, I didn’t notice at first that he has the superior cloth and cut (officer pattern) service dress, which confirms him as the higher level, unit Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer), that after 1915 was designated as a 1st class WO. Edited 17 May , 2018 by FROGSMILE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Upton #5591 Posted 18 May , 2018 9 hours ago, Buffnut453 said: I wondered if it might be the Queen's South Africa Medal but the central stripe was darker than the ones on either side. I suppose that effect could be caused by filters applied to the lens when the picture was taken....maybe? Not a filter, but the film used - orthochromatic film. This renders some dark colours light and some light colours dark. In this case it picks up the blue-black of the narrow stripes and makes them lighter, and turns the red central stripe dark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffnut453 #5592 Posted 19 May , 2018 (edited) On 5/17/2018 at 11:19, FROGSMILE said: As regards the Sergeant Major in the earlier photo, I didn’t notice at first that he has the superior cloth and cut (officer pattern) service dress, which confirms him as the higher level, unit Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer), that after 1915 was designated as a 1st class WO. Thanks Frogsmile. I'm still ploughing through all the photos and came across this one which appears to show the same man together with a RE Staff Sgt and a couple of girls - presumably one is the wife of the Sergeant Major. Apols for the poor quality - the original is in very tatty condition. I still haven't found time to research in more detail who they might be. Edited 19 May , 2018 by Buffnut453 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffnut453 #5593 Posted 19 May , 2018 On 5/17/2018 at 20:28, Andrew Upton said: Not a filter, but the film used - orthochromatic film. This renders some dark colours light and some light colours dark. In this case it picks up the blue-black of the narrow stripes and makes them lighter, and turns the red central stripe dark. Thanks Andrew. I'd forgotten the who orthochromatic tonal switcheroos that can happen, particularly with yellows and reds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FROGSMILE #5594 Posted 20 May , 2018 (edited) On 19/05/2018 at 04:52, Buffnut453 said: Thanks Frogsmile. I'm still ploughing through all the photos and came across this one which appears to show the same man together with a RE Staff Sgt and a couple of girls - presumably one is the wife of the Sergeant Major. Apols for the poor quality - the original is in very tatty condition. I still haven't found time to research in more detail who they might be. I think that they are both RE. There were many specialist appointments for RE that held Warrant Officer rank. Notice his leather gaiters rather than puttees. The sapper seems to be on mounted duty from the bandolier, perhaps from a pontoon section, or signals service. Edited 20 May , 2018 by FROGSMILE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffnut453 #5595 Posted 20 May , 2018 Interesting, Frogsmile. Another respondent on a different forum suggest he might be from the local TF Sigs Coy. The snag is that I know of no family connection to that unit and the possible identity proposed, CSM Johnson, lived on the other side of town from my family...so the mystery continues. Of course the possibility remains that he was in the local TF Field Coy. After deploying to France in Jan 1915, the unit was engaged in building pontoons. One of my more distant relatives was wounded while performing such a task in June of that year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HarryBrook #5596 Posted 20 May , 2018 I would suggest the name of the Major in post #5578 is "R. Elliott" Robert Elliott gazetted Veterinary Lieutenant 5th Sept. 1894 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/26548/page/5147 He relinquished his commission, as a Major, on 16 March 1917 due to ill-health https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29984/supplement/2616 Perhaps the photo is a souvenir of that occasion. Googling "horse hospital st. albans" finds this https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IRfdDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT116&lpg=PT116&dq=horse+hospital+st.+Albans&source=bl&ots=OUCAn3LQG2&sig=Eca7h7Lk7B4TdSwLQf9mL5yUimE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi39obryJTbAhXKDcAKHaW3BO0Q6AEIhAEwCQ#v=onepage&q=horse hospital st. Albans&f=false in which there is reference to a Major Elliott, although it does say he was invalided out in 1915. Robert Elliott was born in Middleton St. George, Durham in about 1874 and appears to have belonged to a family of vets. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffnut453 #5597 Posted 20 May , 2018 One more of my unidentified people from my Mum's photo collection, this time a young lady of a medical persuasion: As with the others, I have no clue who this might be. I can't match her face to any of our female relatives...so efforts to identify her, or any of my "unidentified", will be a real long-shot. Irrespective, it's a nice photo (IMHO). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FROGSMILE #5598 Posted 21 May , 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, Buffnut453 said: One more of my unidentified people from my Mum's photo collection, this time a young lady of a medical persuasion: As with the others, I have no clue who this might be. I can't match her face to any of our female relatives...so efforts to identify her, or any of my "unidentified", will be a real long-shot. Irrespective, it's a nice photo (IMHO). She is dressed in the uniform of a RAMC Corporal, note the Geneva cross above the stripes. Women dressing in men’s uniform became popular after some female music hall artistes did so with popular acclaim, but it had also been the practice of Royalty pre-war, especially in Europe, leading to publicity in many national newspapers. Edited 21 May , 2018 by FROGSMILE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gardenerbill #5599 Posted 21 May , 2018 Hi Frogsmile, are you suggesting it could be Father, Husband or Brother's uniform? Great photograph though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffnut453 #5600 Posted 21 May , 2018 Perhaps her name is "Bob"? Sorry...couldn't resist! I'll retreat to my hovel, coat in hand! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites