Where was the front line in February 1916?

[Rockdoc]

After the retreat in late 1915, I had the impression that the British and French armies pulled completely away from the Greek border and concentrated on building the defensive line of Camp Retranché. Given the need for intelligence I expected that there would have been patrols further north but was there a more permanent presence?

This question has been triggered by a record from 32nd AA Section for 15th February, 1916. Engaged hostile plane travelling NE. Fired 3 rounds, plane flew over enemies lines At the time, the Section was stationed 200 yards east of the 6km point on the Seres road so it was many miles from the border and couldn't possibly have seen the plane cross it. It sounds as if there were OPs being maintained outside The Birdcage - or am I reading too much into this?

Keith

[akduerden]

FIrstly here is a map for Mar 1916...

Secondly, my grandfathers unit (B/115th Brigade RFA) moved up to a position of readiness at Langaza on the 20/12/1915 and remained there until 14/01/1916. For a field artillery unit to go beyond the lines by itself would have been fulhardy to say the least unless there were other units (cavalry) operating in the area to provide intelligence.

A similar event occured on 26/04/1916 albeit this time it was one artillery and one infantry brigade ventured out to Sarijar, which is further North East (away from the birdcage) from Langaza. The movement was called off due to bad weather but the intent was there. In fact a number of tactial excercise were undertaken throughout this area in early May, 1916.

Andrew

[akduerden]

And here is another map showing the front line April 1916. This means the tactical excercises undertaken by batteries of the 115th Brigade in May 1916 were actually behind the new front line.

Andrew

[Rockdoc]

Andrew, the movement back towards the border and to the Struma began something like the end of March/beginning of April 1916, just as the defensive line was completed. I suppose the thought then was that it was safe because they'd got their backsides covered if it all went pear-shaped so I would not have been so surprised by the comment at any time from mid-March onwards. In February, though, the majority of troops would have been inside the defensive line so who was telling the AA Sections about the enemy planes crossing the border?

As your first map shows, The Birdcage ran along the Lakes Langaza and Beshik to the Gulf of Orfano so I'm not at all surprised to find there were artillery positions around there. I would think that reinforced gun positions would have been built into the design of the defensive system.

Keith

[akduerden]

Yes but the defensive line seems to be along the south bank of Lake Langaza whilst the town itself is some 10 miles north of the front line, as indicated in the March 1916 map. As you say the advance did not commence until late March/ early April so my grandfather's unit was therefore operating some 10 miles in front of the British lines in January 1916. If there was artillery batteries out there then I would think there would have also been OP's. The map also seems to indicate that cavalry units were operating north of Langaza.

When did the retreating British and French units finally reach the Salonika area?

Andrew

[akduerden]

Keith,

Just discovered something else which may help. Whilst at the TNA earlier this year I cam across some panormaic sketches of the Bulgar front line drawn 30/02/1916. The drawings seem to be done from within a few miles of the front line and are topagraphic in nature. The footnote states they were drawn by Private H.M. Whatley - Scout Section of 11th Welsh. Based on the panoramic aspect and those fantastic Gjevgjeli maps (and a little on my experience in orienteering) I would position the drawer on the small hill west of the cross roads some 3.5kms south east of Macukovo.

Based on this I would suggest that scout sections were operating near the Bulgar front line and may well have reported on activity between the opposing armies frontlines.

Andrew

[Rockdoc]

Andrew,

Yes but the defensive line seems to be along the south bank of Lake Langaza whilst the town itself is some 10 miles north of the front line, as indicated in the March 1916 map. As you say the advance did not commence until late March/ early April so my grandfather's unit was therefore operating some 10 miles in front of the British lines in January 1916. If there was artillery batteries out there then I would think there would have also been OP's. The map also seems to indicate that cavalry units were operating north of Langaza.

Can we be sure that they were not writing about the lake rather than the town? There's the rub! Looking again at your original post, though, I think you're right. The period at the end of 1915 would have been covering the retreat and creating a defensive position before The Birdcage was built in case the Central Powers invaded Greece, as they were expected to do. The reverse would be true of the return to the same area, when they would be covering the advance.

When did the retreating British and French units finally reach the Salonika area?

As near as makes no odds, everyone was back inside the Camp Retranché area by the end of December 1915.

And thanks for the second post today, which confirms there were patrols, at least, as far as the Greek border. There's a world of difference in suspecting this was the case and having it confirmed. It makes me think that similar patrols must have taken place right along the border areas and down the Struma.

Another query that looks to have been successfully topped off by the GWF!

Keith

[Rockdoc]

Andrew, doing some more analysis I reached March 1916 and found that, on 7th, 32nd AAS moved from Jajalek (which I can't find on the Austrian maps but thing that it must be close to Lake Langaza from other entries) "to NW of LANGAZA LAKE during period of Artillery registration" and they returned to Jajalek on 13th. That confirms that the RA were doing some kind of work in that area, beyond The Birdcage, well before the main advance began.

Keith.

[apwright]

Keith,

The likeliest match I can find for Jajalek is marked on the Austrian maps (Edessa section) as "Jahjali (Jaicevo)", up the Vardar from Topci, just north of Vrlandza. Now Akropotamos (GE 40.8398, 22.6557).

Or it might be possibly Jajladzik, as discussed in this thread

BUT (and Andrew, please note!), the Jajladzik/Halkidona I gave you in that thread, is probably NOT the one Andrew's war diary was referring to!

There's another in the hills above Salonika - it's not marked on the Austrian maps, but there as Yayladjik on WO298/279 (1:20,000 Salonique). It's now called Filyro (GE 40.691, 23.005) - a good spot with views NE across the plain of the Lakes and SW to the city.

Keith, this thread has had me puzzled for a while! (Which is why I haven't responded til now )

At Kilo 6 on the Serres Road, your battery was still inside the Birdcage and inside the encircling mountains, so their view north and east would have been extremely limited. They wouldn't have been able to see their own front line, let alone the enemy's!

At or beyond the Birdcage Line, however, you'd be able to see the mountains marking the Serbian (today FYROM) border on a clear day. (Not the Bulgarian border so much because the Krusha Balkan hills are in the way.)

Adrian

[Rockdoc]

Adrian, I can't see any way that it's the village near Topsin. It's too far. 24th AAS' No 1 Gun - the other Sub was still in Egypt - moved from Hortakoi to Kirechceui "and came under 16th Corps" on 3rd April 1916. As far as I can see, 16th Corps was at the eastern part of the Birdcage, covering the lakes and the Hortiak plateau so this Kirechceui is definitely not the Kirechkoi west of Janes, which I thought it was at first. Shortly after No 2 Gun joined it, No 1 Gun went to Kukus and, a couple of weeks later, No 2 Gun went to Orljak, it seems to cover the new HQ site and dumps. The distance was recorded as 50 miles and it took 11 hours because the Gun lorry broke down several times. Topsin couldn't be any closer so I would have expected some kind of comment. That leaves us, as you suggest, with this place in the hills overlooking the lakes and Salonika. You only have to replace the J sound with a Y sound and the decent similarity between Jajalek and Yayladjik.

It was the 6km position of the Section on the outskirts of Salonika that had me puzzled. There shouldn't have been any way they could have seen the planes flying back over the border so the inevitable question was who had told them. From Andrew's latest post it seems clear that there were patrols or even OPs well north of the Birdcage. It would make a lot of sense for the Entente to keep a close eye on the Central Powers even while they were building the defensive line. You couldn't give them four months' grace to do what they liked unless you wanted some very nasty surprises. I suppose the next question would be how they communicated with the Base area. Wireless, perhaps?

Keith

[akduerden]

The 115th Brigade RFA war diary mentions both a Jajlidzik and Yailajk. They are both the same place as the first spelling is used when the Brigade first moves there, arriving on the 22/12/1915 after leaving Camp Lembet the day before. Three days later the second spelling is used and this spelling is then consistently used. I guess the first is the English phonetic way of pronouncing the village's name. It is described as a point of observation with more than one spur. The Brigade HQ was in the village and the batteries on adjacent spurs. The next village mentioned is Sarijar and then Hadzi Mah.

My grandfather's unit withdrew from Langaza to rejoin the Brigade at this point on the 14/01/1916. The Brigade stayed there until they advanced via Akbunar (which I have never been able to find) toward the front on 5/06/1916.

The other point is that the 115th Brigade was part of the 26th Division which was part of 12th Corp. Does that mean the 24th AAS was actually operating within 12th Corps area of operations?

Withall that said I had until now presumed that the village in the 115th War Diary was Jajladzik which is a village located west of Salonika across the Vardar River on the road leading to Jenidze Vardar - there is also a Saridza near by. Although the Austrian maps are light on topography it may have been possible with binoculars to see up the Vadar valley as far as the Ardzan Sea which is about where the Bulgar lines were at that time.

Andrew

PS. Adrain - you mention WO298/279 (1:20,000 Salonique). Is that a map you have and if so would you be willing to send me a copy?

[Rockdoc]

Andrew, Akbunar is slightly to the NNE of Daut Bali. Have a look on the Austrian map No 41-41 (the one that shows Salonika) and find Baldza. Follow the road SE towards Daut Bali and you'll find it. The British map WO 298/61 (Samli) calls it Akbounar. There was an airfield there later in the war.

In the early part of their deployment it's difficult to be sure who was in overall command of the AA Sections but once the armies advance it becomes clearer. Initially, 24th AAS reported to 27th Division at Hortakoj.It came under XVI Corps when it moved to Kirechceui but No 1 Gun came under XII Corps when it moved to the Janes/Kukus area on 20th May. No 2 Gun stayed at Kirechceui and remained with XVI Corps when they moved to the Struma in June. Ultimately, the AA Sections were divided geographically between the two Corps for the front-line units and LoC for those close to Salonika.

Just in case there was any doubt that Jajalek was near Lake Langaza, I've found the following for 32nd AAS in July 1916 while they were still stationed there: HOSTILE AIRCRAFT engaged at 7.47am 13 rds fired approached from the South direction from SALONIKA HARBOUR and disappeared in the direction of LAGANZA LAKE :- NE observed at a great height 5,000yds at an angle of 67 degrees; owing to bad light and mist observation was very difficult Ceased fire at 7.51am. Nationality:- GERMAN (ALBATROSS) That definitely rules Topsin out and fits perfectly with the position of Filyro..

Keith

[akduerden]

Keith,

The likeliest match I can find for Jajalek is marked on the Austrian maps (Edessa section) as "Jahjali (Jaicevo)", up the Vardar from Topci, just north of Vrlandza. Now Akropotamos (GE 40.8398, 22.6557).

Or it might be possibly Jajladzik, as discussed in this thread http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=116421

BUT (and Andrew, please note!), the Jajladzik/Halkidona I gave you in that thread, is probably NOT the one Andrew's war diary was referring to!

There's another in the hills above Salonika - it's not marked on the Austrian maps, but there as Yayladjik on WO298/279 (1:20,000 Salonique). It's now called Filyro (GE 40.691, 23.005) - a good spot with views NE across the plain of the Lakes and SW to the city.

Adrian

Adrian,

Can I confirm that you now believe that the Jajladzik we discussed in thread http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=116421 is actually or most likely to be Filyro? It will enable me to update my map of my grandfathers movements whilst in Salonika.

I also can't fnd Yayladjik on WO298/279 (1:20,000 Salonique). Can you give me the grid reference please.

Andrew

Edited 11 September , 2010 by EggletonLF

[Rockdoc]

Thanks to Centurion on another thread, I now have confirmation that there was activity beyond The Birdcage while it was being built. Chapter 5 of Ward-Price's book says:

But the Salonica Army did not by any means lose sight of the enemy while these necessary defensive works were being carried out. We had by now come to an arrangement with the Greeks about moving our troops as military needs required into the region between Salonica and the Greek frontier, and mounted .troops with their headquarters at Kilkish were keeping daily watch upon the Bulgars and the Germans by Lake Doiran, and eastwards along the line of the Krusha-Balkan. I spent some time with them going out with their patrols, which played a game of hide-and-seek,---the "seek" chiefly on our side,---with the German Uhlan cavalry, who were reciprocally full of inquisitiveness about us. A lovely country for the Balkans was this debatable land into which we rode, a region of wooded, irregular hills, from whose heights could be seen mile upon mile of the Struma plain with its shining river on the one side, and the hilly country beyond Lake Doiran on the other.

Keith