Dum Dum Bullets

[TonyE]

Interesting,the diference between them all.

The base stamp identifies the bullet manufacturer, not necessarily the same as the case maker (or the loader0 as components were shipped around if needed.

In the first picture the circle stamp is Royal Laboratory, Woolwich, but I am not sure what the other two are. If that is a heavily stamped "1" then they are from Conractor 1 (almost certainly identified as Eley Bros) supplied for loading at RL.

In the second picture the "B" is Birmingham Metals and Munitions Co., the "8" is contractor No.8 supplying components to RL Woolwich, but the number codes have been lost.

Regards

TonyE

[truthergw]

Oh.Forgot to say.

Looks like the Beano's will have to go but,there is no way that a dum dum was made adhoc in the trenches from a .303.

No way

Ah ha! So you are not sure?

[59165]

Ah ha! So you are not sure?

No.I'm 100% sure,Tom.

My reply was to the bit I had written saying that the case would crack before the bullet came loose.Most do (99%) but I had 3 where the brass bent.It still means that the cases were useless afterwards.

On the other hand,German bullets are very east to remove & could be done in situ.

You know where that one will lead.............

[TonyE]

On the other hand,German bullets are very east to remove & could be done in situ.

You know where that one will lead.............

Really? Have you ever heard about them taking the bullets out and putting them in backwards?

...and I'm not signing that one!

[59165]

& why would anyone in their right mind do that

[Pete1052]

If God has a sense of humor and He decides to send Tony to purgatory He'll make him the moderator of a discussion board of wanna-be gun "experts."

[MikB]

If God has a sense of humor and He decides to send Tony to purgatory He'll make him the moderator of a discussion board of wanna-be gun "experts."

No, he'll have to test every possible configuration of forward and reversed 7,92x57 against every type of armour plate current in WW1 in thicknesses from 4.8 to 17mm, tabulate the results and come up with a definitive result before Judgement Day.

(Me, I'll only have to sort mountains of nearly but not quite identical washed socks into pairs - but then I've always known that would be my punishment...)

Regards,

MikB

[Borden Battery]

In a series of interviews I did with my late Grandfather in 1971 regarding his experiences with the Borden Motor Machine Gun Battery within the Canadian Machine Gun Corps, he gave the following two statements related to "Dum Dum Bullets". He was very casual about these comments and looking back, it is my impression these types of bullets (official or modified) were readily available and not unusual. Lots of items are banned in treaties but found their way to the Front or even in modern times.

Private Richard W. Mercer (911016) "We had these 'dum-dum' bullets that would tumble through the air. If they hit an arm or a leg they did a lot of damage. I never used them.”

Source: Dwight Mercer, Regina, SK, Canada

Private Richard W. Mercer (911016) "My pistol was a Smith & Wesson with six shots. You see, they gave us all pistols instead of rifles. Some of the fellows used to load "dum-dum" bullets in their pistols. They would tumble in the air and did more damage than regular bullets. We also used to keep some of extra bullets in a small leather pouch on our belts. I never saw a need for "dum-dum" bullets, in fact to don't think I ever fired them from my pistol."

Source: Dwight Mercer, Regina, SK, Canada

[Pete1052]

... it is my impression these types of bullets (official or modified) were readily available and not unusual. Lots of items are banned in treaties but found their way to the Front or even in modern times.

My impression is that most of these tales about reversed bullets and dum-dums go back to word-of-mouth soldier rumors during the war. I believe the ones that existed were modifications made to standard ammunition made by individual soldiers with pocketknives or other tools. Every war has its soldier gossip -- Dad told me his WW II tales about Germany in 1945 -- and I think these reversed bullet and dum-dum stories during the Great War are examples of that.

[Pete1052]

The forum Tony would be consigned to would probably consist of 20 percent British guys, most of whom wouldn't know the proverbial end the bullet comes out of, and the other 80 percent would be Americans who compensate for their lack of knowledge by their opinionated and bombastic ways of saying things.

[SiegeGunner]

... Americans who compensate for their lack of knowledge by their opinionated and bombastic ways of saying things.

What kind of explosive do these bombasts have in them ...?

[truthergw]

We British don't have guys. Any contenders are burned in a bonfire. We only have gents.

Anecdotal evidence for or against a practice may or may not be useful but it is seldom accepted as final. I spoke to lots of WW1 soldiers and do not recall any mention of Dum dums.

[Pete1052]

No, he'll have to test every possible configuration of forward and reversed 7,92x57 ...

Is there a place like Bisley in Heaven, with unlimited supplies of ammo?

[centurion]

If God has a sense of humor and He decides to send Tony to purgatory He'll make him the moderator of a discussion board of wanna-be gun "experts."

According to one of Rowan Atkinson's sketches He doesn't (everybody who watched A Life of Brian goes to Hell)

[TonyE]

If I were to be fortunate enough to go up instead of down (much more likely) I would ask God to make it the Bisley of the 1960s! Lots of milsurp ammo at give away prices, no restrictions on what one could shoot and people were actually trusted to be sensible and safe.

Now, RUAG ammo at getting on for £1/$1.50 per round and no fun.

Regards

TonyE

[Guest]

In Sniping in France by Major H. Hesketh-Prichard D.S.O.. M.C. page 30 he says....

" These Germans, who were often

Forest Guards, and sometimes Battle Police, did their

business with a skill and a gallantry which must be

very freely acknowledged. From the ruined house

or the field of decaying roots, sometimes resting their

rifles on the bodies of the dead, they sent forth a

plague of head-wounds into the British lines. Their

marks were small, but when they hit they usually

killed their man, and the hardiest soldier turned sick

when he saw the effect of the pointed German

bullet, which was apt to keyhole so that the little

hole in the forehead where it entered often became

a huge tear, the size of a man's fist, on the other side

of the stricken man's head. That occasional snipers on the

Hun side reversed their bullets, thus making

them into dum-dums, is incontrovertible, because

we were continually capturing clips of such bullets,

but it must also be remembered that many bullets

keyholed which were not so reversed. Throughout

the war I saw thousands of our snipers' bullets, and

I never saw one which had been filed away or otherwise

treated with a view to its expanding upon impact. "

Mike

[Piorun]

'morning, Mike. I take it that you've got nothing else to do this Christmas than drag this old one out to stuff in our socks Thanks! Antony

[Guest]

'morning, Mike. I take it that you've got nothing else to do this Christmas than drag this old one out to stuff in our socks Thanks! Antony

The old ones are the best mate.

It's a cracking read is it not, and he was ahead of his time?

Cheers Mike

[Retlaw]

I wish people would shut up about Dum Dum bullets, there is no such thing, the name was invented by Holliwood.

Dum Dum was an arsenel in India where a Captain Clay carried out experiments to make expanding bullets,

resulting in the .303 MkIII, MkIV, and MkV, which were outlawed.

Retlaw

[Piorun]

Oh, dear! Is "shut up" not a rather strong phrase to use, especially when one is spitting into the wind of popular English usage - and misspelling at that? May I respectfully point out that the origin of the phrase is irrelevant. "Dum Dum" has been around long enough to describe reversed or hollowed bullets that it has the universal acceptance of "aspirin" to describe all sorts of analgesic painkillers. Certainly, bullets made at Dum Dum were such a thing that existed long enough to be identified and outlawed. Cheers, Antony

[TonyE]

I wish people would shut up about Dum Dum bullets, there is no such thing, the name was invented by Holliwood.

Dum Dum was an arsenel in India where a Captain Clay carried out experiments to make expanding bullets,

resulting in the .303 MkIII, MkIV, and MkV, which were outlawed.

Retlaw

Mmmm. I think Major General J.W.Tweedie might have a few words to say about that, just as he did at the time. He pointed out that his patents of 1889 and 1891 pre-dated Bertie-Clay's by several years. Bertie-Clay answered and pointed out that he never claimed to have designed the bullet which bore the name of his arsenal but had merely improved an existing design.

I would also point out that although the official nomenclature for the bullet made at Dum Dum was "Cartridge S.A. Ball .303 inch Cordite Mark II, Special", contemporary British military documentation frequently referred to the "Dum Dum" bullet.

Whilst the hollow nosed marks of .303 ammunition were withdrawn and relegated to training use, that was only when fighting good white Christian folk. When fighting a "savage" enemy it was perfectly OK to use them. The last manufacture and issue of over 5 million Mark V hollow nosed rounds was in the 1903/4 financial Year for a punitive expedition to Somaliland.

Regards

TonyE

[SiegeGunner]

I wish people would shut up about Dum Dum bullets, there is no such thing, the name was invented by Holliwood.

You may not like it, Walter, but if an authority of the standing of Hesketh-Pritchard is happy to use it - in lower case and the hyphenated plural form, 'dum-dums' - that's good enough for me.

[QSAMIKE]

Good Afternoon Gentlemen and Ladies.....

I have been reading this thread with interest....... Some years ago I purchased some cartridges in a lot that had a Boer War Mauser clip which is actually what I wanted to keep..... I was advised that two of these cartridges were Dum-Dum bullets...... I am not up in knowledge on this side of collecting and was hopeing that someone (Tony E.??) can give me some more information.......

I have attached some photos.......

They look 303.....

Mike

[TonyE]

Whilst technically not Dum Dums because they were not made at Dum Dum Arsenal, they are Cordite Ball Mark V which was the British derivative of the Dum Dum.

As I am sure you know, your examples were made at Dominion Cartridge Factory. These were the Canadian made version of the rounds I mentioned in my previous post as being issued as late as 1904. Your examples were made about 1899.

Regards

TonyE

[Black Jock]

This may be of interest. The 9th Black Watch on the 11th September 1915 received a despatch from 44 Brigade, that laid down the procedure for dealing with enemy prisoners in possession of rounds that had been tampered with, i.e., the nose cut off or blunted, or the envelope slit, also rounds with the point inwards. Three officers were to assemble and verify the facts and, record the man’s name and regiment etc. If there was no doubt that the man was in possession of tampered rounds, which is a contravention of Appendix 2 of The Hague declaration dated 29th July 1899. He would be shot at once.

However if rounds did not conform to the Hague Convention and were evidently issued, the issuing authority and not the man was responsible.

Tom