German tank units and the Freikorps

[Robert Dunlop]

Before continuing our discussion, it seems like a good time to pause and clarify terminology. centurion, please feel free to amend or suggest alternative terms so that we are referring to the same things.

'A7V' was a codename (Tarnbezeichnung) for the German tank development programme.

The A7V programme resulted in two major variants, based on the same chassis design:

1. Sturmpanzerkampfwagen, ie tanks, which are frequently known as 'A7V's.

2. Geländewagen (also referred to as Überlandwagen), which were tracked carriers.

Within the Sturmpanzerkampfwagen (excluding 'Hedi' and partner), there were very minor variations between individual tanks.

Within the Sturmpanzerkampfwagen (excluding 'Hedi' and partner), a major variant was produced. It was the A7V-U, which had a rhomboid appearance with sponsons.

Some Geländewagen were converted to Sturmpanzerkampfwagen prior to the end of the war.

Robert

[centurion]

Contains a number of confusions and inaccuracies

There were at least five, possibly seven results of the A7V programme

1. The basic armoured vehicle (Panzer) (22 built of which 20 made it into service)
   
2. The Carrier (known as the Uberlandwagen, Raupenlastwagen or Gelandwagen (30 plus completed)
   
3. The A7V-U a rhomboid tank based on components of A7V Panzer 524 Hedi (which is probably the basis of the story that the improvised tank Hedi used A7V-U spare armour) (1 built and scrapped before the wars end)
   
4. The Flakpanzer SP gun that carried two 76.2 AA guns (3 built)
   
5. The Shutzengrabberbagger trench excavator (at least one, possibly more, built and used at the front)
   
6. The Funkpanzer radio tank (two started but not known if completed)
   
7. A heavy artillery tractor - chassis allocated but may not have even been started.
   

The panzer variations were primarily

The armour used of which there were three types, early Rochling (one piece sides but subject to many manufacturing problems and rejected plates), early Krupp (single plates but due to distortions cut up so five plates were used per tank), standard plates (one piece supplied by both Rochling and Krupp). The Germans had great difficulty in manufacturing flat plates of armour which makes the curved turrets of the improvised tanks likely to have been boiler plate.

The gun mounts (initially trestle but later pedestal with some trestle fitted tanks being retrofitted with the pedestal mounts

There were some other minor differences but earlier tanks were usually retrofitted to bring them into line.

Much confusion has been caused because the Chassis number and the vehicle number was sometimes but not always the same

The surviving A7V Panzers were evacuated to Weisbaden as the war ended where they were taken over by the Allies early in 1919 and later scrapped

[Robert Dunlop]

Excellent. Thank you for the updates, centurion.

You have listed seven different 'results' of the A7V programme. FWIIW, I refer to these as 'variants', given that they were based on the same chassis design.

For the purposes of discussing Hedi and partner, because of their relevance to this particular thread, I had re-ordered the results into sub-categories:

1. A7V Sturmpanzerkraftwagen, comprising:

a. A7Vs that you refer to as the 'basic armoured vehicle (Panzer)'

b. A7V-U

c. A7V variant Hedi (my designation for the purpose of clarification), which included Hedi's partner. Both vehicles had the same basic body design with minor variations. Their body design was different enough from the A7V Panzer to justify, IMHO, the term variant.

A7V variant Hedi is included in the class of Sturmpanzerkraftwagen because, at least as far as its use by Kokampf was concerned, Hedi was used in the same role as the 'Panzer' in the war, ie a tracked, fully-enclosed armoured vehicle with anti-personnel weapons.

Please note that this classification is not meant to indicate that A7V 'Panzer' were converted to become A7V variant Hedi, though it appears clear that both Hedi and partner were built on the same chassis as A7V Panzer.

The discovery that Hedi was not alone is very significant IMHO (is this the reference you were referring to earlier?). It is interesting to note how you started by suggesting that Hedi and partner were built in railway workshops but have gone on to discuss how complex some of the fabrication and other design features would have been. By describing them as a variant, I was drawing attention to the very close similarity between the two vehicles. The building of A7V Panzer was not a trivial exercise during the war. This was reflected, in part, by the relatively small numbers that were built. Even when a chassis existed, it took several weeks to create a fully working A7V Panzer. Given the complexity yet similarity of appearance of Hedi and partner, I respectfully submit that both vehicles were created to a common design. It is highly unlikely, IMHO, that they were scratch-built in different facilities during the few weeks after the end of the war and Hedi's first appearance as part of Kokampf.

It is quite possible that A7V variant Hedi was derived from the 'Funkpanzer radio tank (two started but not known if completed)'. Michel posted information about this on the Landships Forum (see here), noting that 'The book 'Panzerwaffe' volume one (editor: John Prigent / co-writer Rainer Strasheim) by Ian Allen Publishing, 2007, quotes that the two Hedi's... were intended to be used as communication / command vehicles, though not necessarily in combination with other tanks. Part of the gun mounts weren't gun mounts at all, but were signalling lamp mounts. The Oberleutnant Hans von Skopnik is said to have seized the two uncompleted vehicles in november 1918, and organised their completion at a company called Steffens & Noelle's.'. It is interesting to note that Turmbau Steffens & Nölle are still in the telecommunications industry today (see here).

You have raised a very interesting point that Hedi's partner may have gone East. The armband would support this possibility, translated as 'Eastern Border Guards'.

You stated categorically that there were 'NO A7V variants'. In light of these clarifications, did you mean that there were 'NO variants within the category of A7V Panzer'? If so then I totally agree, having never considered Hedi and partner to have been A7V Panzer according to the definition that you have provided. Please note, however, that several authors refer to Hedi as an A7V variant, with which, in the more general sense, I still concur.

Robert

[centurion]

You stated categorically that there were 'NO A7V variants'. In light of these clarifications, did you mean that there were 'NO variants within the category of A7V Panzer'? If so then I totally agree, having never considered Hedi and partner to have been A7V Panzer according to the definition that you have provided. Please note, however, that several authors refer to Hedi as an A7V variant, with which, in the more general sense, I still concur.

No there were no A7V variants used by the Freikorps. Hedi and companion were not A7V varients. A7V comes from the committee that controlled German tank production. By the time the tanks used by the Freikorps were built the A7V committee had ceased to exist and could not have authorised another variant.

There is a misaprehension about the use of Uberlandwagon chassis for the Panzers. The A7V committee had placed an order for the production for 100 of the chassis based on Holt track units. This production order was then allocated by the A7V committee for use by combat tanks, carriers, flakpanzers etc etc before the order was completed (in fact nearly half was still outstanding at the end of the war). The chassis built for the tanks and the carriers were in fact not identical in that they had different attachment points for the bodies. You couldn't just drop a tank body onto a carrier. In the cases where a carrier chassis was used to replace a damaged tank chassis the A7V committee reallocated one on the production order intended as a carrier chassis for completion as a tank one.

What appears to have happened in 1919 is that someone as yet unknown acquired a couple of completed chassis (production had by then stopped), probably carrier and scratch built some completely new ordinary steel bodies that fitted the existing attachment points. Who this was is unknown as the now defunct A7V committees two designers were otherwise occupied.

[Robert Dunlop]

We will have to agree to disagree.

Robert

[centurion]

Its quite possible that the improvised tanks had no A7V components not even the chassis. The Allies appear to have been very effective at rounding up all the A7V military tracked vehicles and overseeing the recycling of the track units into agricultural tractors. However the Shutzengrabbenbagger remained in production as a commercial venture using track units made from (by then) commercially available Holt components. (The A7V was closely based on Holt track units). This was not under Allied control and it might have been easier to divert track units from that source.

[centurion]

German tank organisation - outline

If one wants to be really pedantic about this there was no German Tank Force - The whole thing was under the auspices of the Prussian War Office and the Prussian Army. However as this was done under pressure from the OHL we can reasonably call it a German project. The organisation responsible for development and production was Abeitlung A7V [Abeitlung 7 Verkehressen] or 7th Transport Department of the Prussian War Office. They were tasked with producing Panzerkampfwagen and Uberlandwagen based on a common chassis. This prove to be a fatal combination as Volmer's (the designer) original inclination was to design a rhomboid tank but the needs of the Uberlandwagen specification (which A7V gave priority to) effectively forced the Holt based solution. This gave the A7V Panzer a rough ground and trench crossing capability slightly better than the French Schnieder and St Chammond but greatly inferior to the British tanks and severely limited where they could be deployed. Whilst the tanks were still being developed the Prussian War Office decided on the organisation of their operational deployment. There would be units called Sturm Panzerkraftwagen Abeitlungen (Stuka) with five tanks each (one male and four female). In practice 3 stuka were formed Abeitlung 1, 2 & 3 but their tanks were all male (the only female completed being given a subsequent sex change). With the acquisition of captured British Mk IVs further stuka were formed numbered 11 to 22. As the war continued wastage resulted in the Beaute Panzer units to be reduced to 11 to 16. The A7V stuka were all understrength by this time. By late Sept 1918 it was the intention to merge all the stuka into a single battalion but the pressure of the Allied offensive meant that this was never achieved.

In addition to the Prussian tank force some Saxon infantry units used captured French tanks in action in a piecemeal and ad hoc fasion.

[tanks3]

Centurion,

Thanks for the "idiots guide". Just what I wanted. Seems as though I opened a can of worms with my original post!

Tanks3

[Tom W.]

In addition to the Prussian tank force some Saxon infantry units used captured French tanks in action in a piecemeal and ad hoc fasion.

Can you point me toward a source for this?

[centurion]

There is no single source - one has to pick bits of info from various places but for example an attack was made on American forces, July 20th 1918 near Froissy using a Schneider which was destroyed by a 75 mm gun. There are various photos of the tank one of which can be found in Steve Zaloga's German Panzers 1914 -1918

[Tom W.]

There is no single source - one has to pick bits of info from various places but for example an attack was made on American forces, July 20th 1918 near Froissy using a Schneider which was destroyed by a 75 mm gun. There are various photos of the tank one of which can be found in Steve Zaloga's German Panzers 1914 -1918

I was really interested in this, because I'm writing my own book about German assault troops and I was hoping to include it.

I don't think it happened, though. Here's a translation of a comment by a French guy on another forum:

The photograph used in Stephen Zaloga’s book is definitely an American photograph. It is an Army Signal Corps photo (No. 17668). It was definitely taken in the area of Chaudun Plateau and the destroyed Schneider is a Model 2 (which could not be be present under any circumstances at Juvincourt in 1917).

Indeed it is definitely a Schneider of AS2, but on July 21st, 1918, this group supported the American 2nd Infantry Division in the area of Ploisy (and not the 1st Infantry Division in Missy au Bois). The comment on the back of the photograph explains the error which was made and why it was said that the Germans had turned the Schneider against the Americans.

The comment on the back of photo No. 17668: "German tank, large type, put out of action during counterattack by direct hit from 75mm gun. First Division Artillery. Near Froissy, France. July 20, 1918.”

In the type-written comment, “German tank” is scratched out and “French make" is written by hand. Research done by the McCormick association of the Museum of the Big Red One [1st Infantry Division Museum] in Wheaton has not found a trace of a report by the 1st Division artillery describing the destruction of a Schneider used by the Germans. The only report of the American 1st Infantry Division mentioning a destroyed Schneider is that of an infantry section leader speaking about a group of Germans chased from a destroyed Schneider which they used as a bunker (It was a tank of AS1 destroyed near Missy au Bois).

http://landships.activeboard.com/index.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=3651461

[centurion]

There is another (eyewitness) account, published in the NYT of a German tank attack on the Americans at roughly the same time. This time 37mm trench guns saved the day. The type of tank is not mentioned but the attack does not appear to match up to any stuka (the units) attack I can find and no other German forces 'owned' German and British tanks. I have also seen references to German use of French tanks that cite Beutepanzer im Ersten Weltkrieg - Britische, franzoesische und russische Kampf- und Panzerwagen in deutschen Heer, by Fred Koch which is said to cover British, French and Russian tanks and ACs. Unfortunately I do not have access to a copy.

[Robert Dunlop]

...I have become interested in the German Freikorps and the unit that operated the british and A7V tanks in 1919. Are there any good internet sites?

Tanks3, there is a site that covers all of the Freikorps units here.

Further information about Kokampf is presented here.

Several entries list the presence of armoured cars (eg here). There is a picture of a truck that has been modified too (see here).

Robert

[Robert Dunlop]

The site notes 'that this list is not complete and does not include the many smaller units'.

A quick scan of the units that are listed shows the following, in addition to what I recorded above:

Deutsche legion - modified trucks and armoured train unit

Garde-Kavallerie-Schützen-Division - Kampfwagen Abteilung Körting, which became Kokampf

Eiserne Divison - Panzerwagen-Abteilung des Gouvernement Libau; Divisions-Kraftwagen-Kolonne 097 [NB: this is irrelevant. Too early in the morning and read 'Kraft-' as 'Kampf-']; armoured trains

Freikorps Plehwe - armoured train unit

Robert

[tanks3]

Robert,

I am most grateful for your assistance. Some intersting stuff here.

Tanks3

[Guest Tgnob46]

I am a new member and have 2 Freikorps flags. One is a pennant, the other a flag similar to a death head flag

on a photo of freikorp tank "Hedi", that I have found. If I may present photos of flags to the web site, I was looking for help

to identify the pennant and or confirm possible authenticity. If anyone can help, I would appreciate greatly. I will wait for an answer

before I download Photo's. Thanks, Tom