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Soldier in kilt


Guest joanne
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Guest Joanne

I wonder if any of the pals can help me here. I'm doing family research on several soldiers. This is a photo of my great uncle John Kilpatrick. Can any pals tell what unit he might have been with? He is the one seated. As ever I would be grateful for any information.

Kind regards

Joanne

post-1-1086638788.jpg

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As i can see i think it is a Black Watch kilt with a yellow line >>>>> Gordon Highlander.

But the glengary doesn't go with it, it shouls be diced.

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Was he killed during WW1?

didn't found a john in the gordon highlanders who was killed.

where was he from (place of birth?)

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gee the guy on the left looks like trenchwalker!

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this is trenchwalker !

waw!!! it is really him!

post-1-1086640375.jpg

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Guest Joanne

Hi Kristof, (and thank you too Malcolm)

No he wasn't killed. He survived the war. He was certainly brought up in Glasgow, but whether he was born there I don't know. From the photo it doesn't look like they are in France in 1915 (at least). But now I can have a look on the Long, Long Trail about the Gordon Highlanders....see where they were involved.

From the photograph can you tell what rank he is, my mum says that he became a sergeant. Would you know the ranks of the 2 soldiers?

Many thanks.

Joanne

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Excuse a sassenach for asking, but are those men wearing sporrans underneath the kilt covers? Would they normally wear kilt covers when off duty - at the photographers? Phil B

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Guest Joanne
this is trenchwalker !

waw!!! it is really him!

By jove, I think you're onto something....was trenchie's great, great, grandfather in the Gordon Highlanders?

Spooky :P

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Would say it might not be Gordon's. Presence of KD jackets would suggest that unit is on its way or in tropical climates. As far as I can recall no Gordon Bn (excepting 2nd) served in tropical climes. Balmorals would put it into 1915 (roughly). Abscence of dicing on Glen isn't a real indicator. Diced Glens were replaced by Blue simplified Blue Glens in 1914 so seeing a plain glen on a Gordon is not too uncommon. The Yellow stripe on Gordon Kilts is notoriuosly difficult to photgraph.

My guess is Seaforths (possibly 1st Battalion) or even given where he was raised 1/6th (City of Glasgow) HLI.

Joe Sweeney

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Nope no sporans.

later in the war they also wear kilt covers of duty.

On the ranks:

1 stripe= lance corporal

2 stripes= corporal

sergeant must be 3 stripes!

As he was from Glasgow he was for 99% sure a gordon Highlander. That was their town of recruting.

Info on the Gordon highlanders in WW1:

http://www.thegordonhighlanders.co.uk/Pages/Diary.htm

ps: my avatar is me as Gordon highlander WW1 i am doing living history.

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Would say it might not be Gordon's. Presence of KD jackets would suggest that unit is on its way or in tropical climates. As far as I can recall no Gordon Bn (excepting 2nd) served in tropical climes. Balmorals would put it into 1915 (roughly). Abscence of dicing on Glen isn't a real indicator. Diced Glens were replaced by Blue simplified Blue Glens in 1914 so seeing a plain glen on a Gordon is not too uncommon. The Yellow stripe on Gordon Kilts is notoriuosly difficult to photgraph.

My guess is Seaforths (possibly 1st Battalion) or even given where he was raised 1/6th (City of Glasgow) HLI.

Joe Sweeney

i took a closer look to the guy with the Glenn. No stripes on his kilt, so certainly an other regiment.

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Would say it might not be Gordon's. Presence of KD jackets would suggest that unit is on its way or in tropical climates.

Not really there were KD jackets used in summer on the Western front too, so...

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this is trenchwalker !

waw!!! it is really him!

By jove, I think you're onto something....was trenchie's great, great, grandfather in the Gordon Highlanders?

Spooky :P

Very spooky, i mailed him to tell...

let's see how he will react!

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Guest Joanne
Would say it might not be Gordon's. Presence of KD jackets would suggest that unit is on its way or in tropical climates. As far as I can recall no Gordon Bn (excepting 2nd) served in tropical climes. Balmorals would put it into 1915 (roughly). Abscence of dicing on Glen isn't a real indicator. Diced Glens were replaced by Blue simplified Blue Glens in 1914 so seeing a plain glen on a Gordon is not too uncommon. The Yellow stripe on Gordon Kilts is notoriuosly difficult to photgraph.

My guess is Seaforths (possibly 1st Battalion) or even given where he was raised 1/6th (City of Glasgow) HLI.

Joe Sweeney

Thanks Joe,

Yes, I think it definitely looks like they are off to tropical climates too. Is it me or do their uniforms look well a little dishevelled? You said only the 2nd Gordons went to the tropics...could they be that battalion? Where did they go? I will also now try the Seaforths too as your suggest, thank you that. I was wondering about the HLI? I didn't think they were kilted?

Many thanks for your help.

all the best

Joanne

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Out side of limited use by the Indian Divisions in 1914 KD was not used on Western Front.

Joe Sweeney

100 % sure???

i have books telling the opposite, in the hot summer 1917

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Joanne

Re your soldier in the kilt.

I think he is a Gordon Highlander. Only the Gordons wore the full puttee wound up to the knee. Other Highland Regiments wore a half-puttee the rest being the hose. The clincher, however, is missing. 1.e. the garters which were "belled" in the case of the Gordons.

Joe is slightly incorrect about the 2nd. Gordons. No Gordon battalion served outwith France except the 2nd. Gordons but they served in Italy and not in any tropical clime. I must admit the jackets do suggest a tropical association. He is certainly correct about it being taken in 1915. That is written on the photo. The 2nd. Gordons incidentally served in France until November 1917 when they were moved to Italy. He is quite correct re the difficulty in getting the Gordon yellow stripe on the tartan to show up in photos of that era but I have seen a few where it was visible.

Regards

Jim Gordon

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There is no doubt in my mind that this is the 1/6th Bn Highland Light Infantry.

1. Glasgow Regiment.

2. Bn Served in 52nd Division in Middle-East

3. Bn wore Mackenzie tartan kilts. (6th and 9th HLI were kilted)

4. HLI had no dicing on glengarry.

The only other alternative would be 1st Seaforths but I haven't seen any photos of them wearing their puttees in that fashion.

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Guest Joanne
Nope no sporans.

later in the war they also wear kilt covers of duty.

On the ranks:

1 stripe= lance corporal

2 stripes= corporal

sergeant must be 3 stripes!

As he was from Glasgow he was for 99% sure a gordon Highlander. That was their town of recruting.

Info on the Gordon highlanders in WW1:

http://www.thegordonhighlanders.co.uk/Pages/Diary.htm

ps: my avatar is me as Gordon highlander WW1 i am doing living history.

Cheers Krsitof for the website....and for the ranks. It looks like, as far as I can see that John is a corporal, as is Trenchie on the left and the other is a lance corporal. So why is he seated looking so laid back? In the presence of a superior or is it just natural Glasgow charm??????

best wishes

Joanne

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there is no such a big difference between the lance corp and corp...

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Joanne/Jim,

2nd Gordons were serving in Egypt (Cairo) at wars out break and that was my main reference, but this was too early for Balmorals and puttees. They were sent to France in Sept 1914.

Also in brownaq's message he gave the two HLI battalions that wore the kilt.

The more I look at the photo the more I'm convinced its the 1/6 Highland Light Infantry which was the Glasgow regiment in 14-18. I don't think these men have anything to do with the Gordons at all or unlikely to be with the Seaforth's (but still a chance).

Actually, Chappel's book on "Scottish units in the World Wars" shows a 6th Battalion HLI member (Possibly 2/6 due to belt) wearing full length puttees wound all the way up in the same fashion as this photo.

As for looking a bit used. It could be the photo was taken tween Gallipoli and other parts of the east.

Jim,

What is your source on puttees and hose? Interesting. Puttees were only manufactured in one length. Units cut them down for wear or not.

I have the 11th Gordons year books for the years 14 through 16 and shows mostly the use of cut down Puttees or standard gaiters. No full length Puttees at all.

Bkristof,

What book?? I'm curiuos about your source. The only issue instructions put out by the BEF quartermaster general during the war for France concerning KD was the issue of KD Frocks or canvas jackets to RE Tunneling companies to the tune of 250 suits per company. No other mention of KD appears at all in the Quartermaster generals records. These frocks were treated as public clothing.

Joe Sweeney

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:o aggggggghhhhnn

god he actuallt looks like my gt gt gt uncle harry arthur lambert who got killed on the 20th of july taking high wood.

mart

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Hi There,

I am certain it is 1/6th HLI.

The kilt is a McKenzie, the 6th were in Mespot and like it has also been pointed out, they came from Glasgow. The long puttees do not really mean anything. It may have been as simple as when he went to the QM all that was left were long ones. Or as he was HLI, a Lowland Regiment, he may well have been issued them from the outset.

There is no doubt in my mind that he is a member of the HLI and definitely not a Gordon Highlander. The Glangarry is also incorrect for Seaforths.

ALl the best,

Tim

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