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Remembered Today:

21st Battalion KRRC - the original Yeomen


Liz in Eastbourne

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Interestingly the British War Medal/Victory Medal roll has R/27542 Rifleman Frederick T MILLER as serving in 9/KRRC, while his CWGC and Soldiers Died in the Great War entries definitely says he was with 21/KRRC.

 

His MIC shows no Embarkation Date and I cannot find him in the 1914-15 Star roll, so if he did begin his time at the Front with 9/KRRC, he did not go out with them as an original.

 

Mark

 

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Many thanks to Liiz and Mark. I had seen Frederick Thomas Miller's Medal Card, which I am sure had him as 21st Batt. if he was serving with the 9th Batt. I will lokk up the War Diary of that unit. I tried to get The National Archive to copy the relevant records of the Casualty Clearing Station, so that I could see when he was admitted to the CCS, and with what wounds but they said I would I have to come and look through the records to find the appropriate page.

For interest,  I attach an article I wrote about Fred - Ed Miller

Fred Miller 1898-1917.txt

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A very interesting account, Ed:  thanks  I particularly like the way his family changed 'For King and country' to 'For home and country'!

 

I wonder whether his number gives any clues as to whether he would have been sent to the 21st or the 9th first.  Mark's the numbers expert!  Probably not, as he hasn't got a number that goes with either of them and was too young to have been an 'original' of either.  He wouldn't have been a 21st Bn 'original' anyway, coming from London, and he may not have been with them long, given he was 19 years and 2 months old when he died. It's a nuisance we have no embarkation date for him. 

 

Liz

Edited by Liz in Eastbourne
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His R/27542 service number is no help I'm afraid - it merely points to him being a recruit in the second half of the war. 

 

As Liz says, it just shows us he was not an 'original' in either 9/KRRC or 21/KRRC.

 

Even comparing nearby SN's on the Silver War Badge rolls to get a 'window' for his possible enlistment is not completely reliable - for these Derby/Group Scheme men and MSA conscripts, sometimes the SN was issued when the man first attested, (and then went home to await call-up .. often months later), sometimes only when he was actually called up.  Research is still under way to try and get these high R/ prefix numbers dated properly.

 

It is pretty clear he was killed while fighting with 21/KRRC, but the fact the Yeoman Rifles are not mentioned on his BWM&VM roll entry suggests he may have been on temporary attachment to 21/KRRC from 9/KRRC.

 

Without nominal rolls or his full service record we shall probably never know.

 

Mark

 

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Missed quite a bit while away, unfortunately due to a rather sick dog which finally died on Sunday. Many thanks for the help about JJC. There is a wealth of information here that will take some time to absorb. Liz - I took your advice and duly found the detail of JJC's record, thanks. Paul - such great personal detail which I hope to share with JJC's nephews. I live in Somerset so it's a bit of a trek up to Lincolnshire and the nearest I've been to Crowle is Lincoln while researching other members of the family. Coincidently I will be nearby on Monday when I attend the funeral of one of JJC's nephews who has just died at the grand age of 97, but I will get to see two others. No chance to visit Crowle then but Paul's info on the exhibition later this year will hopefully present an ideal opportunity to get up there. Many thanks again. Will now have another look through this thread to delve deeper into the actions JJC would have been involved in..

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We lost our labrador a fortnight ago, so my sympathies.  She has left a big gap in our lives.

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A standalone topic has been started on A/200743, Rfn Frederick STEADMAN, 21/KRRC, Killed in Action 07 Jun 1917 at the Battle of Messines.

 

See here:

 

 

He was not a Yeoman Rifles battalion "original", but appears likely to have been in an autumn 1916 replenishment draft originally intended for 1/RB, but diverted to 21/KRRC to replace the heavy Sep 1916 losses.

 

Mark

 

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Thanks, Mark.  That thread will be a useful addition to the YRs history on the forum.

And sorry about your and Margrave's dogs.

But glad you found the info about your great-uncle useful, Margrave.  It's lucky we could call on Paul.

 

Liz

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  • 2 months later...

Hi all, Very recently discovered my Great Grandfather served in the 21st KRRC. Think he transferred in from the ASC sometime in 1916. His name was John Daniel William Thorne and he was a Londoner. His service number was 13329. Just started reading "A Kitchener man's bit". Really enjoyed reading the thread.

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2 hours ago, Treforys_Jack said:

Hi all, Very recently discovered my Great Grandfather served in the 21st KRRC. Think he transferred in from the ASC sometime in 1916. His name was John Daniel William Thorne and he was a Londoner. His service number was 13329. Just started reading "A Kitchener man's bit". Really enjoyed reading the thread.

 

Thorne's British War & Victory Medal roll entry.  Apologies for the quality ...

1305374907_13329THORNERfnJDW-BWVMRoll.jpg.487ca99ff96410bdca7d531636cad77a.jpg

 

I'd agree with transfer being 1916 or later.

 

Mark

 

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  • 4 months later...
On 11/05/2015 at 09:06, Liz in Eastbourne said:

Morning Anthony.

It would be great to have a photo of Tom Sugden on the thread. Thank you.

You mean Flers, 15th September? It's already on the thread but I realize it's a bit much to expect anyone to read this mammoth thread from the beginning and will go back and find the relevant bits and link to them. I referred to Anthony Eden's book and also Gerald Dennis's 'A Kitchener Man's Bit' as well as the War Diary. Both of them were in C Company, Dennis transferring to D company after Flers, so frustratingly for those of us interested in men in B Company, there is less about those men in their books. It is however clear that some men from B Company got ahead of the artillery bombardment and many were killed by British shells, sadly,

Liz

 

On 11/05/2015 at 09:24, Liz in Eastbourne said:

In the course of revisiting my files on the Yeoman Rifles I found a list I compiled in 2012 (with the help of Geoff's famous search engine, as you couldn't do it via the CWGC website at that time) of casualties on the Thiepval Memorial from the Flers and Gird Ridge actions on the Somme. 103 at Flers, 28 at Gird Ridge (but remember these are not total casualties and the battalion was already much reduced at Gird Ridge, even with the arrival of drafts just before the action.) It might be useful to provide it here, with the caveat that there may be errors.

Thiepval Memorial Pier & Face 13A &13B
Yeoman Rifles: Killed in action at or died of wounds after Flers (15 September 1916) or Gird Ridge (5-10 October 1916)
Flers: 15 Sept only date of action for 21/KRRC but records often say 15/17 whether KIA or DOW.
 
Riflemen
C/12307 Alcock, James Alfred
C/12455 Barker, Arthur
C/12457 Barker, Walter
C/12399 Barrett, Leonard
R/ 20585 Baxter, William Frederick
C/12432 Belfield, Clarence Jenkinson
Y/1051 Bland, Ernest Edward
C/12802 Blomeley, Frederick George (Sjt)
C/12459 Bonsall (or Bonsell) Harold
C/12707 Bradbury, Norman 10
 
C/12500 Brodrick, Frank
C/13002 Brown, Robert
C/12372 Burrows, Herbert William
R/20065 Butterfield, Frederick Arthur Thomas
C/12318 Chapman, William Albert
C/12604 Close, William Henry
R/16698 Cullington, Percy William
C/12467 Darling, William
C/12417 Davison, Walter
C/12526 Daws, Edmund 20
 
C/12897 Dean, Thomas Gibson
R/19476 Earnshaw, Edward
C/12363 Elsey, George Robert
C/12873 Everingham, Percy
C/12927 Feakes, Morton Herbert
C/12728 Gains, Tom
Y/720 Garde, Frederick
C/12344 Gill, Harry
C/12986 Gill, Tom Edward
R/ 16704 Gooding, Ernest William 30
 
C/12600 Grieveson, Oliver Russell
C/12260 Hainstock, Albert
C/12958 Hedditch, Ernest Frank
R/19397 Hill, Arthur
R/20346 Holborn, James Edward
C/12075 Holt, Robert Bertram
C/13006 Humphrey, Edmund
R/19484 Hunter, Robert Hope
5/2989 Jackson, George
C/12878 James, Sydney 40
 
C/12696 Jones, Alfred
C/12045 Kidd,John William
C/12308 King, Arthur
C/12595 Lambert, Robert Henry
C/12159 Maxwell, William Horner
C/12642 Mercer, George Henry
C/13003 Milner, James Henry
C/12771 Mitchell, William Lister
R/19405 Morrison, William Alexander Russell
C/12837 Neall, Joseph 50
 
C/12954 Newton, Estill
R/16762 Onslow, Nathaniel
C/12191 Ounsley, Ernest
R/13426 Owens,Terence
C/12168 Pallister, George Nelson
C/12708 Parkin, Fred
R/16641 Parkinson, John Thomas
R/16659 Payne, Aubrey Charles
18827 Pepper, Albert Edwin
C/12971 Postgate, Sidney 60
 
C/12661 Proctor, James Henry
C/2552 Revely, George
C/12428 Rhodes, Ferdinand James
C/12865 Richardson, Joseph Leonard
C/12497 Rowley, John Bedford
C/12577 Seavers, William Thomas
R/16816 Shaw, Leonard John
R/20144 Sidley, Cecil Moore
C/12172 Skilbeck, Francis Wilson
C/12215 Smart, William 70
 
C/12165 Smith, Alan
C/12752 Spence, William
C/12864 Spraggon, John
C/12833 Squibbs, Cecil Jonathan
C/12669 Stawart, James
C/12533 Stead, Samuel Charles
C/12062 Strickland, Alonza
C/12659 Sugden, Tom
C/12505 Sykes, Albert
C/12556 Taylor, Thomas 80
 
C/12149 Thompson, Harry
C/12797 Thorpe, Sam
C/12163 Toase, Thomas Edwin
C/12375 Turner, Herbert
R/120161 Vear, Percy William
C/12317 Walker, Alexander Mann
C/12183 Walker, Henry
C/12156 Walker, Stanley
C/12911 Wallace, Thomas William
R/194180 Walther, Harry Theodore 90
 
C/12738 Webster, Charles Alfred
C/12321 Welden, John Jackson
R/16385 West, George Christopher
C/12414 White, Thomas
C/12081 White, William Donald
C/12874 Whiting, Oliver
R/19423 Wilkin, Edwin
C/12849 Wilkinson, Frank
C/12566 Winter, John Edward
R/16073 Witt, Bertie 100
 
C/12142 Wragg, Thomas William
 
Officers
2/Lt Benton, Frank
2/Lt Nivison, Robert Butler
 
 
Gird Ridge 7 Oct 1916 including casualties just before and after the action 5-10 October.
Riflemen and NCOs
C/13032 Brannen, Thomas
R/10826 Brown, John (CSM, B Coy)
C/12823 Denison, Thomas William
R/33139 Flaherty, Alexander
R/22168 Freeman, William Stanley
R/20736 Gray, Alexander James
C/12032 Greenhill, Henry John
C/12759 Island, Cyril
C/12481 Jennings, Clarence Malyn
C/12427 Kirbyson, Charles 10
 
C/12570 Longbottom, Fred
C/12387 Manfield, Herbert
R/11128 Marron, Andrew Joseph
C/12349 Mellor, Frank
R/33141 Morgan, Evan Stanley
C/12449 Nicholson, Sidney
C/12856 Palfreyman, John
C/12955 Peers, George Stanley
R/11957 Perry, Albert Edward
C/12678 Pugmire, Horace/Hughes 20
 
C/12681 Simons, Percy (MM)
R/22080 Spurgeon, Harry
C/12627 Swale, Wilfred
C/12972 Swales, Herbert
R/18147 Swannell, George Henry Frederick
C/12866 Waite, Leonard Stephenson
C/12443 Williamson, Matthew
C/12671 Woolley, Charles McKenzie 28
 
I really need to add the numbers with known graves.
Liz

Dear Liz .. I can’t believe my Uncle Andrew Marron is on your list .. please do you have any more information at all ? I would be so grateful ! many thanks Helen 

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Hello Helen, and welcome to the forum.

All I have on my file is your uncle's CWGC entry (below), which I am sure you must have found.  There's a good deal about the battle in which he died, Gird Ridge, on this thread.  Just at the moment I haven't time to check Ancestry - but have you already looked for his records?

 

Liz

Lance Corporal MARRON, ANDREW JOSEPH

Service Number R/11128

Died 10/10/1916

Aged 26

21st Bn. 
King's Royal Rifle Corps

Husband of Phoebe Jane Marron, of Howitt St., Heanor, Nottingham.

 

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I can confirm that the British War & Victory Medal roll has R/11128 Rfn Andrew MARRON only serving in 21/KRRC.

 

Soldiers Died in the Great War lists his rank at death as Lance Corporal; place of enlistment as Ilkeston; and birth place and residence both as Heanor.

 

Since L/Cpl was strictly speaking an Appointment, not a substantive Rank, it is often not recorded on the medal rolls (nor their MICs).

 

I failed to turn up a service nor pension record for him on Ancestry unfortunately.

 

 

Mark

 

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Be aware that Helen has started a separate topic about R/11128 Andrew Marron here:

 

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Thank you so much to Liz and all of you folks for helping me reaserch my Uncle Andrew Marron R/11128 - all I have is this photograph from the local newspaper in Heanor at the time of his death. I thought you may like to see this. 
LANCE CORPORAL ANDREW JOSEPH MARRON R/11128
21ST BN., KING’S ROYAL RIFLE CORPS WHO DIED ON 10TH OCTOBER 1916 AGE 26.
LANCE CORPORAL ANDREW MARRON
NOVEMBER 3RD 1916 
THE FATE OF LCE. - CORPL.
MARRON OF HEANOR
OFFICIAL NEWS RECEIVED
The fate of Lec. Corpl. Andrew Marron, of Heanor, is no longer in doubt; for on Thursday pf last week official notification reached the family that he had been killed in action. Lec. Corpl Marron, who leaves a widow and three children, resided at Howett Street, Heanor, and was attached to the 21st Batt King’s Royal Rifles. He is the son of Mr and Mrs Marron, of 22 Fair View Heanor, and son-in-law of Mrs Mason 68 Princes Street, Eastwood. He enlisted on March 18th 1915, and received most of his training at Winchester and Sheerness, going over to France in May last. He was previously a miner, and worked at Brinsley Colliery, but had spent some years in the Merchant Service as a seaman. He was on the Canadian and Pacific steamship Montealm, trading between Quebec and St John’s Newfoundland, and New Brunswick spending some time in Canada, and also served on the yacht Opah, flying under the Royal Clyde Yachts Club’s colours. In his career as a soldier he had twice been mentioned in despatches for conspicuous bravery on the field, and was a fine marksman, winning his cross guns at Sheerness. His death is deeply regretted by a large circle of relatives and acquaintances. 

E86AAD73-D8CF-41B9-9D73-C670B7AFFF88.jpeg

Edited by Helen from Durham
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Heanor and neighbouring areas of Derbyshire is a hotspot for KRRC recruitment.

 

Sir Herbert Raphael, the sitting MP for nearby South Derbyshire, organised the formation of the KRRC's 18th Battalion with HQ at his estate in Gidea Park, Essex.

 

As part of this initiative a KRRC Recruiting Office was set up in Derby.

 

In addition the large local Church Lads' Brigade membership is likely to have been a factor.  The Church Lads' Brigade ran a corps of cadets, which had strong connections to the KRRC through Field Marshal Lord Grenfell, KRRC, who was the CLB's Commandant.  The KRRC's 16th battalion was raised by Grenfell as a Church Lads' Brigade 'Pals' battalion and in 1917 the CLB Cadets were formally affiliated to the KRRC.

 

[Lord Grenfell also had Grenfell Road in Notting Hill named after him, which in turn gave the name to Grenfell Tower]

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway
typo
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On 04/11/2018 at 20:41, Liz in Eastbourne said:

Hello Helen, and welcome to the forum.

All I have on my file is your uncle's CWGC entry (below), which I am sure you must have found.  There's a good deal about the battle in which he died, Gird Ridge, on this thread.  Just at the moment I haven't time to check Ancestry - but have you already looked for his records?

 

Liz

Lance Corporal MARRON, ANDREW JOSEPH

Service Number R/11128

Died 10/10/1916

Aged 26

21st Bn. 
King's Royal Rifle Corps

Husband of Phoebe Jane Marron, of Howitt St., Heanor, Nottingham.

 

Thank you so much Liz .. I have learned so much from your posts. I found my Uncle in the war Diary on a list of names which i presume was him being lost. 

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Helen

Sorry I wasn't able to add anything new - but your newspaper article is invaluable, telling us that he went to France with the battalion even though he joined them a little late and giving so many details.Thanks for posting that.

It's a fair bet that Andrew Marron was in D Company, as a man from Nottingham and also a late arrival in the battalion .  It might be interesting for you to read 'A Kitchener Man's Bit' (GV Dennis).  Dennis was moved to D Company after Flers and so his accounts have some relevance.  However, he was a signaller and  from a very different background (rather sheltered, living with his widowed mother and training to be a teacher) from your uncle with his experience as a miner, merchant seaman and sailor. Mentioned in despatches twice - very impressive. 

 

Liz

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I think Brinsley Colliery was where DH Lawrence's father worked and forms the model for the colliery in Sons and Lovers.

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4 hours ago, Liz in Eastbourne said:

Mentioned in despatches twice - very impressive. 

 

 

So far I have failed to turn up these MiDs.

 

Marron is not in the same London Gazette edition where Earl Feversham gets his MiD, nor in the various Haig Somme despatches published in late 1916/1917.

 

No mention of Marron in the MiD lists in 1916 nor 1917 KRRC Chronicle either.

 

Finding MiDs is not simple though!

 

Mark

 

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9 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

So far I have failed to turn up these MiDs.

 

Marron is not in the same London Gazette edition where Earl Feversham gets his MiD, nor in the various Haig Somme despatches published in late 1916/1917.

 

No mention of Marron in the MiD lists in 1916 nor 1917 KRRC Chronicle either.

 

Finding MiDs is not simple though!

 

Mark

 

I would love to find the mention in despatches - is there anyway of finding them ?  somewhere my Mum has a letter that His commanding officer (who survived)  wrote to my Great Grandparents saying that he dragged him out of the woods and saved his life if I can find it I will copy it onto here - again thank you so much for your help, 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 13/06/2012 at 22:54, Liz in Eastbourne said:

2. The officer’s diary says ‘As we were starting up to the line on the 6th, a shell fell at he head of A Company, killing Yeaman who had just joined us from England and Browne (sic) the old B Company CSM who had just rejoined us after being wounded on the first night at Plug Street. Howard was so badly shaken that Foljambe sent him down to the Transport.’ ‘Browne’ was John Brown, R/10826, commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

Liz

Hi Liz,

Last week I started to research John Brown as he essentially is a Winchester man. Although born in Belfast, his Winchester born father was stationed there in 1879 and after a short spell in India the whole family were back in Winchester by the time of the 1891 census and stayed there after.

His sdgw reference to Clanfield, Oxon is where his wife moved to in 1919 and not where he was living upon enlistment. 

There are two questions I have about the above quote...

 

First, It says "the old B Coy. CSM" So is this suggesting he was with A Coy. When he was killed?

 

Secondly,  "the first night at Plug Street". I have dates of 24 May and 8 June 1916 for his 'gsw neck' and wondered which is most likely to be correct. Following this wound he was sent back to 3rd Northern Gen. Hosp. Sheffield.

 

Once I've completed I'll add my notes here for reference having picked up your references to him in posts 305 and 503.

 

Regards

Alan 

 

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Hi Alan

I'll have a look at my sources but forgive me if it takes a few days.  I have got slightly rusty on the movements of the Yeoman Rifles over the past year or two and can't for the moment think when he would have been wounded, though they arrived at Plug Street on 13 May and the company of the Royal Scots they w ere relieving had heavy casualties that night.  The officer whose diary I quoted, H C Meysey-Thompson, was then in B Company and would have known Brown well, but didn't mention him being wounded then, only in this later reference to his death.

 

Yes, I assume he was in A Company when he came back and was killed.

 

Liz

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4 hours ago, Liz in Eastbourne said:

Hi Alan

I'll have a look at my sources but forgive me if it takes a few days.  I have got slightly rusty on the movements of the Yeoman Rifles over the past year or two and can't for the moment think when he would have been wounded, though they arrived at Plug Street on 13 May and the company of the Royal Scots they w ere relieving had heavy casualties that night.  The officer whose diary I quoted, H C Meysey-Thompson, was then in B Company and would have known Brown well, but didn't mention him being wounded then, only in this later reference to his death.

 

Yes, I assume he was in A Company when he came back and was killed.

 

Liz

 

Thanks for the info Liz.

 

There is a document published in 1921 'The Winchester War Service Register' form which information was gained after Peace Day 1919 from the families, in this case almost certainly his Mother as his wife and children never lived in the City. (His brother was a Sgt. in the Hants Regt. and may have lived with their mother).

In this 1921 document, the wound is recorded as 24 May 1916.

 

Between 13th and 27th May the WD shows that the battalion were still training but parties were attached to 8th Black Watch & 11th Royal Scots for instruction in the trenches. It is possible he could have been wounded here.

 

5th June looks like their first proper deployment as a battalion in the front line, taking over from 15th Hants. His casualty form suggests his wound was on the 7th (not 8th as I said previously). Two companies were in Plug Street Wood West?

If you interpret the WD as...Relief commencing on the night of the 5th and completing 8.20am on the morning of the 6th, he could have been shot in the early hours of the 7th which could be considered as the 'first night'...?

 

He seems quite unlucky, enlisted for home service and put in a special request to serve overseas, embarked 5.5.16, wounded 7.6.16 (33 Days), rejoined 16.9.16, killed 6.10.16 (20 Days).

 

Regards

 

Alan.

 

 

 

7 june.JPG

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