Liz in Eastbourne Posted 1 December , 2013 Author Posted 1 December , 2013 The man in the middle looks vaguely like a number of individuals on the main officer group photo but I can't identify him with anyone. I have worked out the officers of the battalion as they were at Aldershot, with a few queries. This list changed during the first few months in France and of course dramatically after Flers on 15 September 1916. I am pretty sure this is right: B Company Capt AT 'Patch' Watson Capt RC Burton Platoons: Lt HC Meysey-Thompson (senior subaltern) 2nd Lt P. Brooksbank (7 Platoon) 2nd Lt CG Leatham 2nd Lt Baxter All except Meysey-Thompson are in the officer group photograph, and this man doesn't as far as I can see match Leatham or Baxter. Brooksbank was in charge of 7 Platoon, as we know from the photograph. So is this Meysey-Thompson? He had German measles and was off sick from 13 Feb to 6 March (according to his diary in the IWM), which I have assumed was why he wasn’t in the group photograph, but perhaps they did manage to get a platoon photograph with him a few days later. I've wondered whether my original interest John Thomas Hardcastle was in Meysey-Thompson's platoon, as M-T was nephew of Baron Knaresborough, not far from where he came from. But in the absence of any other photograph I shall never know. Is the man on his left, our right with the stripes an NCO? Liz
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 1 December , 2013 Author Posted 1 December , 2013 (edited) The battalion was at Aldershot from 24 Jan 1916 to 04 May 1916. That may help to narrow it down. Sorry, yes, I should have said that. See further details above. EDIT Just seen the edits on your post made after my previous post, Mark - as mentioned above, there is a lot of change later, which I won't go into here but I have a complicated and not final sheet showing the officer movements as far as I can deduce them in 1916. Your point that this is a full lieutenant seems to confirm that this must be Meysey-Thompson, thanks. After Flers he was put in command of C Company. Burton was in command of B company but as you say he was wounded at Gird Ridge so that only lasted a few weeks. Liz Edited 1 December , 2013 by Liz in Eastbourne
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 1 December , 2013 Author Posted 1 December , 2013 (edited) On 12/1/2013 at 10:11, MBrockway said: ... Most of the other battalions list the officers on embarkation. Unfortunately not the Yeoman Rifles. By the time of the attack on BAYONET TRENCH on 07 Oct 1916, the 1917 KRRC Chronicle states ... "Of only two officers, Captain R.C. Burton was badly wounded and 2nd Lieut. Anderson was killed, ... " Our man is a full Lieutenant, so is neither of these men. The rest of the company's officers had been killed or wounded at the action on 15 Sep 1916. Not quite all the rest. Guy Leatham appears to have been kept out of the action at Flers, EDIT and he had been transferred to Brigade HQ by early November, according to Meysey-Thompson, which may explain the statement that B Coy had only two officers at Gird Ridge on 7 October. EDIT And of course there was Brooksbank, who was still in B Company and took over command from Burton after Gird Ridge,and Meysey-Thompson himself, who took over C Company after Flers. Both were in action but escaped injury at Flers. Edited 29 September , 2016 by Liz in Eastbourne type had changed in forum upgrade
MBrockway Posted 1 December , 2013 Posted 1 December , 2013 (edited) On the basis of that, it looks like Lt HC Meysey-Thompson is our man. The only full lieutenants mentioned as casualties in 21st Btn in the 1916 KRRC Chronicle Officers' Casualty List are Lieut. R.C.S. Baxter and Lieut. H.T.Turner, both wounded. Meysey-Thompson is not mentioned. I've ploughed through the battalion war diaries from May to December 1916 in the hope of further clues, but unusually for the KRRC, the Yeoman Rifles report little about specific named officer casualties. Most is written in a difficult hand and parts have become rather faint. Compounded by the heavy officer losses in September, the war diary for Sep/Oct is short on detail. I could not find any corroboration of any of the officers in B Company. Of more general interest, some B Coy men took part in the trench raid on 10/11 July where C/12003 CSM McEwen won his DCM and are listed in the Nominal Roll for the raid ... R/5791 Sjt Campbell C/7607 Cpl Coe C/12255 Rfn Ainsworth C/12304 Rfn Gover, J.N. C/12506 Rfn Broadbent C/12164 Rfn T.W. Bell Campbell and Coe are likely to be among the NCO's in the front row of Thommo's photograph. Edited 1 December , 2013 by MBrockway
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 1 December , 2013 Author Posted 1 December , 2013 On the basis of that, it looks like Lt HC Meysey-Thompson is our man. The only full lieutenants mentioned as casualties in 21st Btn in the 1916 KRRC Chronicle Officers' Casualty List are Lieut. R.C.S. Baxter and Lieut. H.T.Turner, both wounded. Meysey-Thompson is not mentioned. ... Meysey-Thompson was in action at Flers but not wounded. He describes what happened to him in his diary. Baxter was not promoted Lieutenant till June 1916, and you can see it's not the same man from comparing the photographs. Turner was promoted in June too, and was signals officer. I too had been wondering if any of the B Coy men in that raid are on this photograph. I especially wondered about Bell, who is mentioned by Meysey-Thompson as a particular loss - 'an excellent boy in my platoon'. He never says which platoon, but if that's Meysey-Thompson, Bell is somewhere in the photograph. Liz
DaveBrigg Posted 25 January , 2014 Posted 25 January , 2014 Has anyone following this thread tried to walk the route of the 21st KRRC at Flers? Our school trip will be visiting the Somme in February and the whole trip is based around the idea of tracing the experiences of local men. I posted on here earlier the pictures of Joe Neall who was killed on 15th September, so it would be great if we could follow on the ground his actions on that day. I have read Liz and Mark's transcription of the war diary but cannot discover exactly where the start line was. If I have the direction correct it would be somewhere near Lesboefs.
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 25 January , 2014 Author Posted 25 January , 2014 Dave I haven't actually traced their steps, though of course I've been to Flers and various key 21/KRRC places in the area. I will check later whether I posted the whole diary for September (frustratingly skimpy compared with many!) with relevant bits from Eden's book, and if not will add the missing bits here with other sources I've found since. Briefly, it says Francieres Sept 1-6, Dernancourt Sept 7, Becordel Sept 9 -14, paraded at 6pm at Delville Wood Sept 14, then on 15th 124th Brigade advanced on a line between Flers and Guedecourt - but there is more detail in the diary and elsewhere about the battalion's location. Am rather busy this weekend but will do it before the end of Monday, if no one else has already posted. Liz .
DaveBrigg Posted 26 January , 2014 Posted 26 January , 2014 Thanks Liz! We have a couple of weeks, so please don't put yourself out too much on Monday. A line from Delville Wood does not bisect the two villages, which made me wonder about the advance starting further east.
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 31 January , 2014 Author Posted 31 January , 2014 Dave, sorry I have taken so long. Checking, i see I did transcribe all the War Diary for September earlier. But there might be a little more from the diary of Lt. H.C. Meysey-Thompson, a platoon commander in B Company, which is © IWM so I am mostly paraphrasing here. Sept 13 about 2.30 pm From big camp between Miault and Fricourt, march up over the old line past Fricourt to Pommiers Redoubt near Montaubon, spend uncomfortable night in ‘dilapidated old trenches’. Sept 14 About 5.45 pm Watson comes back from conference at HQ with plans for attack, starts explaining to him & Brooksbank and NCOs. Orders arrive that they must get ready to move at once. Parade and start to move up to the line. Not far but communications trenches blocked with men. M-T at rear of Bn ‘to whip in.’ Sept 15 About 4 am reach end of communications trench in a wilderness of shell holes in Delville Wood. Someone in front has lost touch with Bn – desperate – no-one knows way. Moonlight but whole wood full of men, all lost. Just as it gets light M-T finds himself on north edge of wood and someone tells him where rest of Bn is. Has to cross open land and is shot at. Barrage has begun. No time to waste. Runs and dodges and finds company about 10 mins before ‘zero’. Watson (i/c B Company) and CSM Huddlestone distributing letters. About 6am, lovely morning, goes over. ‘We are in a line of trenches just north of Delville Wood, with the Wood behind us and open rolling country in front. On our left is the sunken road leading to Flers from Longueval…The line of advance lies just to the east of Flers, practically due north. The 122nd Brigade are on our left, witth Flers as one of their objectives.’ Tanks in support for first time. ‘Our first objective is the green line, a few hundred yards in front…we pass straight on to Switch trench.’ Some Germans in trench. Men then press on too keenly and suffer a good many casualties from own barrage. (I feel a particular interest here – my great-aunt’s fiancé John Thomas Hardcastle was badly wounded at Flers, was in B Company and might well have been in Meysey-Thompson’s platoon, coming from near Knaresborough – M-T’s family seat.) When barrage lifts they go on to Flers Trench, take it and then take Flers Support Trenches. Does this help with the start point? Liz
DaveBrigg Posted 31 January , 2014 Posted 31 January , 2014 Does this help with the start point? Liz Thanks for this Liz, that's exactly what we were looking for. Another forum member has very kindly supplied a trench map showing Delville Wood and Flers, and I think we have been able to locate Switch Trench. I have no idea where Joe Neall lost his life on that day, but we should now at least be able to look out on the same fields that he stood in that morning and follow the battalion's route. Google Maps thinks it will take about 45 minutes. Dave
Guest peninsula Posted 11 February , 2014 Posted 11 February , 2014 Hon Sec King's Royal Rifle Corps Association. I am new to the forum but very well acquainted with the history of the 21st Bn. Their Hon Sec, Gerald Dennis held an annual lunch in the Feathers Pub in Helmsley and we met each year and laid a wreath at the visitor centre in the town square, a tradition that is still kept up by the Women's Section, RBL Helmsley. The KRRC hold the copyright of Geralds book "A Kitchener Mans Bit" and his manuscript of his writings on the 21st Bn. I was present with a bugler of the Royal Green Jackets when we scattered Geralds ashes in Duncombe Park after service in the Chapel there.
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 11 February , 2014 Author Posted 11 February , 2014 (edited) Welcome Richard - I knew you were coming after our recent conversations and am delighted you've joined the forum and this thread. I hope we'll manage to carry forward your idea that Gerald Dennis's book could be republished - with a few additions and corrections to the original editorial notes: for example the two officers with the surname Burton became confused there, as you'll see from discussions earlier in this thread. EDIT This, page 6 and also page 7. We had several contributions earlier from Jim Kilmartin who also has a long history of researching the Yeoman Rifles, and whom I believe you know - I hope he's still on the forum.as I'm sure he'll be pleased to see you. Liz Edited 11 February , 2014 by Liz in Eastbourne
MBrockway Posted 11 February , 2014 Posted 11 February , 2014 A very warm welcome to you Richard from myself also. Looking forward to what I'm sure will be valuable contributions on the 60th generally! Cheers, Mark
Holmeboy Posted 11 May , 2014 Posted 11 May , 2014 Hi, The information on this thread has been absolutely fascinating, I've got nothing done today because of it My interest lays with the original posting about Richard Fisher Johnson, he is listed on our Parish Roll of Honour at Holme upon Spalding Moor. We are hoping to produce a booklet about all our men and have research their military and family history. Richards family has strong links with the village. We also have Rifleman Fred Smith R/26569 who we've plenty of family history about but no military history. Also Rifleman Frank Brodrick c/12500 Military History: He enlisted on the 26th of November 1915. The medical examination lists he is fit for service, but needs dental treatment. On the 23.11. 1915, he signed a statement that he is willing to undergo dental treatment to no expense to himself. He was in the Cambridge Hospital in Aldershot between the 4th and 16th of February 1916 suffering from influenza. 19.5.1916 embarked into the field. 27.5.1916 suffered from dental carries in Arques. 5.6.1916 went back on duty. 16.9.1916 wounded in action in the field. The above mentioned soldier was in a great charge in September 1916, NOT HEARD FROM SINCE. Presumed by the War Office that he was killed on that date. Frank received the British Medal and the Victory medal. If anyone is interested in the family history of any of these men let me know i'm more then happy to send it on, and would love any information I may of missed on Fred. Chris
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 14 May , 2014 Author Posted 14 May , 2014 (edited) Good to hear from you, Chris. If you got nothing done on Sunday because of this thread, imagine how many days I've diverted from things I ought to have been doing on to this thread! You haven't come across a photo of Richard Fisher Johnson, have you? You may have noticed that we have a possible one here but it could be another Johnson. I have research notes on Frank Brodrick with the military details you mention above, plus that he enlisted in Scarborough, his form was countersigned by Feversham and he was in A Company (medical form), as I'm sure you'll have noticed. He was 19 when he enlisted, a Roman Catholic, and worked as grocer's assistant; his father ran the Station Hotel. (I know you have the family details). Do you know that Fred was also in 21/KRRC? (EDIT ambiguous, sorry, I meant 'Are you assuming/ Do you think?') He hasn't of course got a 21/KRRC number, but that doesn't mean he didn't end up there. On the other hand he could have been in another battalion all along. Liz Edited 14 May , 2014 by Liz in Eastbourne
Holmeboy Posted 14 May , 2014 Posted 14 May , 2014 Hi Liz, Many thanks for all your info not just on my post. I've seen the picture of Rifleman Johnson, and would like to think it is him. I didn't know Fred was in the 21st as well no. The Smith family still live in the village. We've just had a WW1 event showing a lot of pictures we've gathered, mainly of those who came home, but we did manage 6 pictures of soldiers that didn't return home out of the 39. This has got everyone now rooting around their lofts and asking relatives for old photos. So hopefully we might get some more, If any turn up of Fred and Richard I'll let you know Chris
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 14 May , 2014 Author Posted 14 May , 2014 Chris, I've just had a quick look on Ancestry and the owner of the Smith Family Tree has kindly done the work on Fred for us. CWGC lists Fred as 18th Service Bn KRRC (Arts and Crafts). They were in the same division as 21st Bn (122nd Briugade, while 21st Bn was 124th Brigade) and he died at the same time (10 October 1916) and in the same general area as many in 21st Bn. But others (Mark Brockway springs to mind!) can help you with them. His MIC is there but I haven't seen a military record. Good luck with your efforts. I'm engaged in a similar one here in Eastbourne but it doesn't involve 21/KRRC, though surprisingly for a northern battalion, I did find two officers with strong connections here. Liz
Guest JD v Merveldt Posted 19 May , 2014 Posted 19 May , 2014 Happy New Year, everybody - and thanks for your good wishes, Nigel and Mike, I did get away and back with no problems and hope you too had a good Christmas. So back to the Yeoman Rifles officers! Temp. 2nd Lieut. Robert William Rowland Law (later MC and Captain). Wounded at Flers 15 Sept 1916 Second from left in the photograph, back row. Law was (according to the 1919 engagement notice in The Times) elder son of the late William Law, of Colombo, Ceylon, who was probably a tea and/or coffee planter, and helped found the Colombo Golf Club, and of Mrs Law, about whom I have found nothing. Law's earlier life too is hard to find online, probably because he was born in Ceylon, though I would guess he went to an English public school. He was older, at 34, than most of the 2nd Lieutenants in the photograph; he was born on 20 Sept 1881, according to his 1975 death details on Ancestry, so his public school years would not include 1891 or 1901, and I have found no census records. He has already been noticed on this thread (see page 4) because of the bravery he showed on the night of the trench raid, 10th –11th July 1916, for which he was awarded the Military Cross. The Nominal Roll for the raid shows that he was with A Company; he was leading a group of NCOs and Riflemen from all four companies. I haven't found his MC announcement or citation and would be very grateful if someone better at London Gazette searches could find it. He was wounded at Flers (War Diary Sept 1916 and KRRC Casualty List 1916) and may not have returned to the Yeoman Rifles when he recovered. The London Gazette entries I have found are as follows. 10 Nov. 1916 KRRifC Temp. Lt R W R Law to be actg Capt whilst cmdg a Co. 8th Aug 1916. 15 Nov 1916 The undermentioned to relinquish the actg rank of Capt on ceasing to comd a Co: - 15 Sept 1916 ............................ Temp Lt R W R Law. 12 Oct 1917 KRRifC Temp Lt R W R Law MC from a Serv. Bn. to be Temp. Lt (attd) 9 July 1917, with seniority from 1 Feb 1915. 14 May 1918 Staff Capts Temp Lt R W R Law MC, attd KR Rif C, to be transferred to Gen. List , and to be temp Capt whilst so empld, vice Capt HS Johnson, W York R, 28th Apr 1918. 17 Sept 1918 Temp Lt (Temp Capt) R W R Law MC to be Temp Capt Gen List 1st May 1918 12 Sept 1919 Temp Capt RWR Law OBE MC to relinquish commission on completion of service and retain rank of Captain. Which battalion he was attached to from July 1917 to April 1918 would be interesting to know. The Times of December 16 1919 contains an engagement announcement: Capt R W R Law (late KRRC) OBE, MC, elder son of the late William Law, of Colombo, Ceylon, and Mrs Law, and Ethel Mary, only daughter of James Forbes, of Mount Grace, Potters Bar. Mrs Law was related to Admiral of the Fleet Sir Charles Forbes (also born in Ceylon, according to Wikipedia), whose funeral the Laws attended among the principal family mourners in September 1960. After the war – judging from occasional mentions in The Times - the Laws led a comfortable life in London. Whether they had children I have not discovered. Mrs Law was presented at court in June 1922 and her dress was described in detail in a special fashion report – 'an ivory georgette gown richly embroidered with seed pearls over shell pink, silver and gold', with a 'train of gold lace, lined with pink chiffon', made by Jessie Hall of 41 Curzon Street. Law was treasurer of the London Chamber of Commerce (1946), and a director of Barclay Perkins Ltd till 1947. As late as January 1970, when he was 88, he was Chairman of The Plymouth Breweries. He died in London in 1975. Liz The medals of Capt RWR Law OBE, MC, (+ 1914/18 Medal, The Great War for Civiliation Medal & the 1939-45 Defence Medal) are about to be placed with the RHJ (Rifles) Museum in Winchester, Hants SO23 8TS. They have recently been relocated amongst other items of RGJ property. The OBE has the old type of ribbonn no name but GRI on the reverse. The MC is inscribed on the reverse: 2/Lt RWR Law, 21 KRRC, Ploegesteert-Flanders, July 10/11th 1916. The 1914/18 medal & the Great War medal have only his rank and name inscribed; no Army No or Regt. No names etc on the 1939/45 medal. Have not been able to located MC Citation nor entry in L.G. for the OBE & MC. In 1929 he presented Seven Commissions, Pay Sheet and RMC Certificate of Maj Gen G. Rigaud to the KRRC Museum. In 1938 he presented the Tip and tail of a German aeroplane bomb dropped on the 5th BattalionKRRC at Sheerness in October, 1917. The aeroplane was one of some twenty German planes which raided Sheerness from the direction of Southend. Finally in 1963 Capt RWR Law (late 60th) very generously presented an extremely nice Water Colour of a Company of the 2nd Bn. In Ambush during the Kaffir War 1851-3. This painting is by Orlando Norrie who was probably the most accurate military painter of his day. J-D v M 19/5/2014
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 19 May , 2014 Author Posted 19 May , 2014 (edited) Colonel von Merveldt, I'm honoured that you've visited this thread (and rather tickled to note that you're a private by the Forum's ranking system!) Thank you very much for this additional information about Captain Law. I'll look out for his medals at the RGJ Museum next time, if they'll be on display. Liz Edited 22 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
Chutist33 Posted 19 May , 2014 Posted 19 May , 2014 Hi Liz, Just caught up with the excellent thread. Nice to see Richard has joined. That day spreading Geralds ashes at Duncolmb Park and the Rifles Bugler playing the last post will always stay with me. Still in Knaresborough if you pass by. Best wishes, Jim Kilmartin
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 20 May , 2014 Author Posted 20 May , 2014 Good to see you back again, Jim. Please stay in touch and if I plan to be near Knaresborough (I still have relatives not far away) I'll let you know. I went to Duncombe Park last summer while staying with a cousin in Oswaldkirk, but you'd never know the Yeoman Rifles had had anything to do with the place, as there's nothing in the reception area/shop about that part of its history and the house itself is closed (just the park, with a birds of prey centre, is open to visitors). But of course, the park is where they were and so I could envisage them all in training there in early 1916. Liz
Chutist33 Posted 20 May , 2014 Posted 20 May , 2014 Hi Liz, Wonder if Duncombe Park plan to do anything for the centenary? In the Chapel there they have Lord Fevershams' 'tommy' helmet mounted on an oak board. I recall Gerald saying that the colonel was kneeling down looking through binoculars and checking his map when he was struck down. When you see the helmet, you can clearly see why he was killed instantly. Very poignant. (I have been researching WW1 for SSAFA centenary project, sadly no local records remain so no 21st KRRC stuff found). Best wishes, Jim K
Holmeboy Posted 25 May , 2014 Posted 25 May , 2014 Does anyone have the Regimental dairy entry for 10th October 1916. I'm research Rifle Fred Smith R/26569 of the 18th Battalion and the 21st Battalion. Cheers, Chris
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 25 May , 2014 Author Posted 25 May , 2014 Chris I transcribed the war diary starting here, but I don't understand why you still think Fred Smith was in 21st Bn as well as 18th Bn. Please see my post #419 - sorry it was ambiguous at first but I meant to ask whether you had any reason for thinking this. CWGC lists him as 18th Bn, so he was killed while serving with them, and his service number is not a 21st Bn one. Liz
Holmeboy Posted 25 May , 2014 Posted 25 May , 2014 Hi Liz, My mistake i keep cutting and pasting from a document i first did on him and forgetting to delete that part. Have done now Many thanks for your help chris
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