Hill 10 Suvla Bay

[Guest banjo33]

I ahve been doing some research into the battles around here and have come up with something I find strange, perhaps someone can help?

It seems alot of the officers were burried at sea, even though they were killed inland and the men who died (and have marked graves)with them on the same day are buried inland.

Why would this be?

[Krithia]

I think many burials at sea during Gallipoli are results of soldiers dying onboard hospital ships etc. Have you an example or two of an officer, and I'll do a little investigating?

[MartinWills]

Steve (Krithia) is right in suggesting that burials at sea were accorded to a number of soldiers who were wounded, evacuated and then died at sea.

These men are recorded either on the Helles Memorial on Gallipoli or the Memorial at Alexandria, as I recall, though I have a vague recollection of at least one being on one of the Naval memorials (Chatham, Portsmouth or Plymouth).

Martin

[Guest banjo33]

Two examples are Robert Layzell private 1/5th Essex dow 15/8/15 burried Hill 10. Second Lieutenant Ronald Turner 1/5th Essex dow 15/8/15 burried at sea. thanks

ANYTHING on either of these guys would b a bonus. I have CWWG and medal cards ,would love a battalion diary.

Thanks

[Robert Dunlop]

It seems alot of the officers were burried at sea, even though they were killed inland

This seems to be the key part of banjo33's question. I have read of deaths at sea being buried at sea but not deaths on land. But the extent of my reading in this campaign is limited.

Robert

[Guest stevenbec]

I have come across entries like this before in AIF records and beleive it may refer to this.

Soldiers could be KIA or DOW on the battlefield or later that day in hospital or hospital ship.

I have a soldier shown KIA but died at the Field Amblance in the rear and like wise a soldier DOW on the battlefield not in the field Amblance.

Many soldiers were evac straight to a hospital ship the same day as a battle these would be sent straight back to a main hospital at Lemnos and then further back.

Its a point when checking records to look in all places for unit casulties and all dates, from the day of the battle to some two or more weeks after.

S.B

[MartinWills]

Whether men were evacuated would often depend upon the nature of their wounds, prospects of recovery and availability of evacuation ships. I do not believe that there is any suggestion of one option for men and another for officers.

I have not come across any cases pointing at death on land and burial at sea. Cases I have come across have tended (though not exclusively so) to be rankers, even withing the same Division and the same period.

The 161st Brigade was not specifically engaged in the days before 15th August in the way that the 163rd were (the famous 5th Norfolks action) but there was concern during this period over shortage and condition of hospital ships.

The DoW pointers suggest clearly that death followed after the action/incident that provoked the mortal wounding.

Martin

[michaeldr]

Two examples are Robert Layzell private 1/5th Essex dow 15/8/15 burried Hill 10. Second Lieutenant Ronald Turner 1/5th Essex dow 15/8/15 burried at sea. thanks

ANYTHING on either of these guys would b a bonus. I have CWWG and medal cards ,would love a battalion diary.

banjo33,

The following is taken from Ray Westlake’s book ‘British Regiments at Gallipoli’

a lot of his info coming from the history of the battalion by Major T. Gibbons

“August

………………………

Sailed 12.30 pm. Landed ‘A’ Beach, Suvla without casualties and concentrated a short distance inland. Moved forward to reserve positions 10 pm. Ordered forward to second line trenches during the night (12th August). Advanced in single file, halting at daybreak and forming 2 lines. Advanced to relieved 163rd Brigade firing line 4 pm (14th Aug).

Major Gibbons records distances covered as being just over a mile. He also notes heavy shrapnel fire and snipers operating to the left. Relieved 1/5th Norfolks and 1/8th Hampshires in ‘C’ Sector. Line held being a fenced ditch facing Kuchuk Anafarta Ova.

Casualties during advance – 14 other ranks killed, some 60 wounded. Second-Lieutenant Turner killed while out with patrol after dark. Captain Denton killed by sniper (16th Aug).”

I hope that this is of some help

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Guest banjo33]

This adds to my point, if he was killed whilst out with a patrol why take him to sea for burial?

If it was on the western front it is hard to think that anything other than burrial could be possible. At Suvla the sea was never far away. Was there a feeling that burrial at sea was better than foreign soil?

Thanks for comments so far.

[michaeldr]

banjo33,

I feel that there may have been some misunderstanding here.

Walker in his ‘To What End Did They Die – Officers Died at Gallipoli’

gives Turner as ‘Killed in Action’ [not died of wounds] and that he has ‘No Known Grave’

Also the CWGC gives Turner as recorded on the Helles Memorial

either on the panels 144-150 or 229-233

However only those recorded on panels 229-233 are Essex men who died at sea

(see Holt’s Battlefield Guide page 99)

Do you have other information from another source which confirms exactly which panel his name appears on or, that confirms that he definitely died from wounds and was buried at sea?

Best regards

Michael D.R.

[bill oliver]

Pte 3213 Robert Henry Layzell, 5th btn Essex Regt., was killed in action on Aug 15th 1915 and lies in grave V G 5 at the Hill 10 Cemetery in Gallipoli. 29 year old Robert was the son of Thomas and Lucy Layzell of West Street, Tolleshunt D’Arcy, Essex.

[Jonathan Saunders]

I think irrespective of whether the official records state "he" was KIA or DOW the clue in how he actually died is that he was buried at sea - ie he had died of wounds on a hospital ship. These were confused and hectic times - mistakes were made in paper administration or/and "eye-witness" reports.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[Bryn]

Banjo,

Could you tell us where the information that Lieut. Turner was buried at sea is from?

I know of 879 Anzac casualties buried at sea, and none were listed as KIA. 43 of these were officers.

I do have one odd case, completely the opposite situation in fact. An officer who died at sea has a marked grave at Anzac. I'm still looking into it, but it seems certain he did die at sea, and yet I've seen his headstone.