The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[Verrico2009]

Very impressive - and very impressive, Andy!

This might be of interest - a nice clear pic of the boat and some first-hand accounts: http://www.ilfsac.org.uk/glenart/glen_main.htm and the original Times article.

[headgardener]

Would be interesting to know if Lund was one of the survivors mentioned in the article on Louise's post, or was he one of the casualties? (his death is recorded on the following day, isn't it?). I wonder what his death cert says. I wonder if he does appear in the index of Marine Deaths, or whether his death appears in the 'normal' index.

Has anyone actually been able to confirm what unit was according to the CWGC register (as opposed to the CWGC database)?

[Andy Wade]

I had a read of The Times article (the jpeg at the bottom of the page Louise linked to) and he's not one of the survivors listed there. But I'm not sure if it's an exhaustive list anyway.

I'm hoping the relative might have a death cert for him, She hasn't got back to me yet, but it's early days.

Ah. just double checked, the list is the survivors who landed at Swansea, but it also says nine others were landed at Milford Haven, but wouldn't you believe it, they aren't listed in that article.

And Pembroke Dock Military Cemetery is in Milford Haven...

[sutton-in-craven]

Andy, that is a wonderful account of Harry Lund on your Men of Worth web site, it summarises the events as have been uncovered very nicely and succinctly.

Today, I'll be starting my own compilation of all the facts uncovered and was quietly thinking it's going to be quite a task putting all the information from 76 posts into some sort of logical order. But having your summary will help me sort through it all.

Also the Times article adds so much value and quality to this whole saga. It's a great addition that compliments everything we know so far on Harry and his ill-fated voyage.

Great work everybody,

edit - Andy, I have to say your Men of Worth site is a very impressive data base of soldiers from the Worth & surrounding area. You've obviously put a lot of hard work into it, well done!

Edited 27 August , 2010 by sutton-in-craven

[sutton-in-craven]

[quote name=headgardener' the reference to RND is a mistake (I think that sometimes we may assume too much about what next-of-kin knew or understood about a relative's service; it's easy to imagine that someone might have thought that a soldier serving on a ship was automatically part of the RND)

Headgardener, you may be correct in that the family wrongly assumed Harry served with the R.N.D.

My only thought on the matter is that this information seems somewhat specific. I'm not sure how the next of kin would/could have come to the conclusion Harry served with the RAMC attached to the Royal Naval Division if Harry had not mentioned it. Unless the R.N.D. was common terminology back in WW1 as the papers would have been full of war news for 4 years.

[headgardener]

Yes, it does seem very specific, but my suggestion was only one of 3 possible scenarios.

One thing that is certain is that he could not have been serving with the RND at the time of his death for reasons that I've stated in more than one previous post. And that's why I've been banging on about the CWGC register, death certificates, and that new book on hospital ships, because I can't see another way of solving this aspect of the case short of someone coming up with some more info (such as another obit).

[Verrico2009]

...the papers would have been full of war news for 4 years.

Papers like the Yorkshire Post and the Yorkshire Evening Post - and he was a Yorkshire lad... I shall make a visit to the library over the weekend.

[Andy Wade]

Does anyone have access to the local Milford Haven newspaper archives (Milford Mercury perhaps)? Seems to me that a trip to a local library might throw up details of the nine people who were brought ashore there. We have a definite date so it wouldn't be a long search. At least a list of names and possibly an obit for Harry Lund. It's odd to me now, thinking that a man born here was buried in South Wales. I appreciate the difficulty of bringing bodies home from France/Flanders for burial but this man died in the home country.

I'm phoning Harry's relative this morning as she's just got back to me, so we'll see what she says.

[Verrico2009]

Just spent lunch in the library. The YEP picked up the story on 27 February and the YP on the 28th. Andy/Andrew: if you'd like a copy I can get a print when I have more time. In the meantime I'll load the screengrabs I took and post a link later. Not identified any mention of Harry yet, but it was rushed and the print's very fine. Anyone know roughly what time lag there might be between the official lists being compiled and releasing them to the papers?

[Andy Wade]

Ooh, yes please.

And in answer to your question regarding Remembrance Sunday, sounds good to me.

They wouldn't put anything like names of casualties and survivors in the London Gazette would they? Apart from the obvious official inquiry reports of course.

[Verrico2009]

As promised, a link to my handheld shots of the fiche: http://flickr.com/gp/louiq/5786k0 I'll get back and get photocopies: the YEP seemed to have the better report.

Brill.

[sutton-in-craven]

That's great Verrico, good work and yes please, a copy of the print would be excellent.

The sinking of this hospital ship was obviously major news and well covered in the YEP. It's seems the German's made a habit of sinking hospital ships in WW1, maybe the Brit's did the same. I guess it was all out war.

Yes it does seem a little strange that Harry's body was not returned to Sutton and buried in the Church / Chapel cemetery. There are several WW1 servicemen who died of disease/wounds in UK hospitals who were returned to be buried in Sutton. Despite the incredible amount of information so far uncovered on Harry, I guess there will be some things that will continue to mystify us.

[Verrico2009]

This might be of interest: http://www.archive.org/stream/reportsg70guysuoft/reportsg70guysuoft_djvu.txt

Two mentions of the Glenart Castle and reference to "Lund, H." I think it's an OCR and the information should be in table form: just have to work out how...

[Andy Wade]

This might be of interest: http://www.archive.org/stream/reportsg70guysuoft/reportsg70guysuoft_djvu.txt

Two mentions of the Glenart Castle and reference to "Lund, H." I think it's an OCR and the information should be in table form: just have to work out how...

Hi Louise,

It is an OCR of a .pdf file of a whole book of Guys Hospital Reports and information on their war memorial.

If you changed the last bit of the url: '.txt' to .pdf, you can view the original version, complete with pictures of some people.

Unfortunately the 'Lund, H' is a Captain in the RAMC TF, from 2nd Western General Hospital. It looks like a fascinating read despite not being what we're looking for. The Glenart Castle reference is about Temp. Capt A E Kelsey RAMC who was drowned when the ship sank.

Edited to add:

This is fascinating! Whole rolls of service, admin staff, doctors, nurses etc etc, all listed alphabetically and there's a search box too which puts nice little yellow tags on the pages where your search word is found! Just click on the tab and it opens the page for you and your search word it highlighted on the page.

[headgardener]

Louise,

The 2 references to Glenart Castle are both for the same man. And the H. Lund isn't our man (you're looking at the WRONG FORMAT).

That document is a very good find, though.

[Verrico2009]

Awww - you're spoiling my fun: I've been playing with tables and you have to go find the easy way to do it. Dang!

Oh well, at least we know it's not him. I was hopeful, seeing the RAMC references. Careful, Andy: Capt H Lund will probably join your growing list of Lund researches!

[Verrico2009]

We need Chris Harley, methinks: http://1914-1918.inv...showtopic=51450. Database here: typing in Glenart Castle brings up the service personnel and there is one RAMC man listed (http://www.roll-of-h...rses/index.html) Perhaps we can get Harry added?

[sutton-in-craven]

OK, a little more info' on the Lund family tree

On the 1901 census, it looks like Harry's father Samuel aged 48 was living as a married man, albeit on his own at Laycock, employed as a shepherd, born Keighley. (maybe he couldn't make ends meet working at the farm in Slippery Ford)

1901, Verrico has already mentioned that Harry's brother John Thomas, aged 20 was now living in boarding at 2, Braithwaite (misspelled Aakworth), Keighley.

The 1911 census shows Harry's father Samuel aged 58 was still married & living on his own, still at Laycock employed as a sheep farmer.

1911, Harry's mother Sarah Ann (58) and his sister Elizabeth (26 and single) are now living together at West Lane Sutton-in-Craven. Elizabeth is working as a weaver. The census also confirms that Sarah Ann only had 3 children, all 3 were still alive and that she had been married for 30 years. Doesn't look like she saw much of her husband over the past few years.

Absolutely no show for our Harry/Samuel on either the 1901 or 1911 census – where the hell was he!

edit - forgot to mention I searched for both names, Harry & Samuel in vain - very strange.

2nd edit - Found Harry’s father on the 1891 census still living on his own as a 38 year old married man at Dob Field Farm House, Laycock, working as a farmer. That means he lived away from his wife Sarah Ann for at least 20 years. Perhaps it was the only way the family could survive financially, or maybe it was their way of getting ‘divorced’ without going through the official motions. As a hard working farmer and with no cars back then he certainly wouldn’t have had much time to walk over to Sutton to see his wife – interesting.

3rd edit - Hmm, I’ve looked up Dob Field Farm which is on Todley Hall Rd, Laycock just up the hill from Braithwaite. Verrico earlier mentioned that Harry’s older brother John Thomas and older sister Elizabeth were both born at Dob Field Farm, Laycock. So it looks like Harry’s mother Sarah Ann decided to move out of Dob Field Farm sometime between 1881 and 1891 and live in the same house as her 2 brothers at Slippery Ford where our Harry was born.

Maybe she couldn’t hack the farming life style, maybe Dob Field Farm wasn’t big enough for a family of 3 children, or as mentioned earlier perhaps they were having marital problems. I always feel a degree of poignancy when trying to piece together and imagine what actually happened and the hardship families such as this would have experienced compared to ‘easy life’ as we know it today.

Edited 28 August , 2010 by sutton-in-craven

[Old Owl]

Hi Andrew,

Sounds like Harry/Samuel was keeping himself beneath the radar, I wonder if he had something to hide or was he just moving around at such a rate that the census never actually caught up with him?

Perhaps if he was living in rented accomodation and moved around he may just have opted not to enter his name on the form--I suppose that there was no hard line obligation for him to 'tow the line' so to speak? After all he is noted as living in Huddersfield and according to previous posts he appears to have enlisted at Ilkeston in Derbyshire?, so do we assume that he was working there or was he just on a day trip and suddenly got the urge to enlist? Such a pity that his Service Papers are not available, as these I am sure, would have filled in a few gaps.

We may never know the answers to some of these questions, but at least we have a good outline of his life--and a lot more than we had a month ago.

It is always possible that he did put himself on the census? but may have been more economical with some of the information he gave, or it may even be down to errors in the transribing of the entries. There are many errors on the Ancestry site. Keep looking and you may find him?

Best wishes, Robert

[headgardener]

I'd suggest that rather than searching by name you search by surname only; look at all male Lund's born within about 5 years of that date of birth, and look for a birthplace close to his place of birth according to SDGW (although I wouldn't consider that as gospel). In that way you'll pick up transcription errors and possible other names. You might come up with someone who fits the bill but has a different first name, for example. Do you know what first names he had on his birth certificate?

Very possible that his family were very poor and some of the kids were distributed around other family members (i.e. being raised by grandparents, uncles & aunts, etc).

[sutton-in-craven]

Good idea Head gardener, I did a 1911 census general Lund search for the whole country 5 years either side of 1892.

This brought up 16 pages of Lunds – 784 names. Of these names there were just 2 Sam Lund's, 1 Samuel Lund and a Samuel Henry Lund, but none were our Harry.

There were 13 Harry's and 3 more with middle names, but definitely none were our Harry. I even checked out the Henry Lund's in desperation. No other Christian names come close to the ones I checked.

So this general Lund search was a good idea in that it weeded out any potential misspellings and other transcription errors. It looks our Harry was omitted from the 1911 census – shame.

[Verrico2009]

1911 census:

Harry LOUND - away with the Navy

Harold LUNN - living in Huddersfield

Harry LUNN - with the Navy

And those are just the ones I like the look of.

I guess I'm going to pay up and view the Huddersfield man...

[Chris Foster]

Bear with me Verrico and I'll take a look .

Chris

[Chris Foster]

LUNN, Levi Head Married M 51 1860 Commission Agent Marsden Yorks VIEW

LUNN, Caroline Wife Married

20 years F 49 1862 Golcar Yorks VIEW

LUNN, Nellie Daughter Single F 19 1892 Golcar Yorks VIEW

LUNN, Harold Son Single M 18 1893 Apprentice Golcar Yorks VIEW

[Verrico2009]

Thanks, Chris. Not him then. I was hoping to get something from the mention of his maternal grandfather, but it seems Thomas died in 1890, before Harry was born.

Edited to add, slipped and searched the 1901 census rather than 1911 on findmypast and - bingo:

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Disability Where Born

LUND, Sarah Ann Head Widow F 45 1856 Sutton Yorkshire

LUND, Elizabeth A Daughter Single F 16 1885 Spinner In Worsted Mill Laycock Yorkshire

LUND, Harry Son M 8 1893 Slipperyford Oakworth Yorkshire

Widow, eh? The address is 15 West Street, Sutton (which is the one the relative supplied) - Parish Sutton St Thomas.

I've also pulled up the original for 1911, where Sarah's back to being "married". I assume Harry's at Cross Hill in the process of his apprenticeship by then. One thing that occurs to me is that the 1911 census was, I believe, the first one where the householders completed them in person. I think there were some misunderstandings - in my family, we only discovered the existence of a child who died in infancy because his mother had erroneously added him, then crossed him off: his siblings were too young to remember. Perhaps Sarah assumed Harry would be recorded at his place of work and they expected him to be added to his residence?

I think this may be the man who founded the business, although he doesn't appear on census returns after 1891 - but it does show it to be local: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~petytandnewiss/legacy/petyt-newiss-thornton/i55.html#i1303