The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry'

[sutton-in-craven]

Hi, I wonder if anyone can enlighten me on this naming on one of the brass plaques of the Sutton-in-Craven WW1 cenataph (see image below)

I'm assuming ATT. R.N.D. = attendant in the Royal Naval Division.

Was this guy in the army with the RAMC or the Navy.

I've tried searching for his Medal Index Card with no luck, would he have an MIC if he was attached to the R.N.D.?

I'm wanting to research this person fairly urgently, so any help would be greatly appreciated as so far I've found zero information on him.

Thank you in advance, regards Andrew

[David B]

Andrew,

Pte Samuel S Lund 126249 RAMC does appear on the list of MIC's in Ancestry records. Doesn't say much except he qualified for the BWM/VM pair. No other details on the MIC. His service

records are absent unfortunately so cannot help much more.

David

[NigelS]

I'm assuming ATT. R.N.D. = attendant in the Royal Naval Division.

'Attached' possibly?

NigelS

[MickLeeds]

Several RAMC Field Ambulance units were attached to the RND.

http://www.1914-1918.net/63div.htm

[SteveE]

I'm assuming ATT. R.N.D. = attendant in the Royal Naval Division.

Attached Royal Naval Division.

Link to Royal Naval Divison details on LLT... http://www.1914-1918.net/63div.htm

Regards

Steve

[sutton-in-craven]

Thanks David,

Yes I'd already spotted Pte Samuel S Lund 126249 RAMC, but he isn't listed on the CWGC as a casualty. That said I realise there may be some names missing from the CWCG.

Thanks also Nigel, yes 'attached' is more likely the abbreviation than 'attendant'

I guess the main thrust of my question is have people seen RAMC soldiers attached the Royal Naval Division before, and if so would they have a Medal Index Card?

I've also searched through every S. Lund on the 1911 census and none come up as coming from Sutton-in-Craven where this guy is listed on the war memorial.

I fear this research project may end up being a non-starter. Regards Andrew

[sutton-in-craven]

Thanks Jotsmee and Steve. From the links you provided I can now see there are 3 Field Ambulance and 2 sanitary units of the R.A.M.C. attached to the R.N.D.

Not sure where to go from here, he could have been Samuel S Lind as David has pointed out, but this guy is not listed as a casualty.

Thanks again all, regards Andrew

[horatio2]

The Field Ambulances, etc of the RND were not "units of the RAMC attached to the RND". They were Royal Marine units manned by naval surgeons and men of the Royal Marines Medical Unit (RMMU). The Field Ambulances were renumbered as 148, 149 and 150 FA on joining the BEF in mid-1916. In early 1917 most naval surgeons were replaced by RAMC oficers and other RAMC personnel were attached but they remained RM units until the war's end.

[mmm45]

Andy....Just as a point of interest theres a Edward Lund on CWGC born Silsden enlisted Keighley Died in 1915 Egypt.

Hes listed as living in Sutton on the 91 census maybe same family as its an uncommon name??

Have you checked BMDs...he may have been a discharged soldier and died after discharge.Keighley Library may have something on their card system?

Smith Lund is the only guy i can see on Ancestry with local connections to that area but according to BMDs he died well after war ended??

Ady

[headgardener]

I guess the main thrust of my question is have people seen RAMC soldiers attached the Royal Naval Division before, and if so would they have a Medal Index Card?

I fear this research project may end up being a non-starter. Regards Andrew

No-one seems to have answered your question regarding whether he'd have an MIC; he is listed as serving with the RAMC, therefore he is army, therefore he would have an MIC, although bear in mind that a very small percentage of MIC's are missing. Maybe also try checking the Ancestry MIC list just in case it delivers a name that isn't on TNA's database (it did happen with one of my men).

In order to clear up any potential confusion, I did a search of TNA's database for members of the RND, Royal marines and RN personnel, and nothing comes up for an 'S. Lund'.

In respect of your project 'ending up a non-starter', you're not seriously going to let this minor setback get in your way, are you? This forum is crawling with people who are having the same problems attributing a name on a memorial with a casualty who doesn't appear on CWGC or who doesn't appear to come from the local area. Everyone here loves a challenge, don't they? Just got to keep digging, you'll find him sooner or later. There's lots of possible explanations for him being listed as a casualty yet for him not to appear on CWGC.

Could try local papers. Or war memorial committee records. Or 'In Memorium' notices during the post war years. Or local cemetery records (he doesn't seem to have died abroad). Or local census returns. Or could be a transcription error with CWGC or with the memorial listing. Or, or, or.....

[sutton-in-craven]

Hi Ady, how's it going? Thanks for your thoughts, all ideas are most welcome

I've now done what you suggested and checked all the deaths for S. Lund from 1914 – 1923 when the memorial was unveiled. Plenty of women but no men who fit the criterion.

There's also a 267036 Pte James Henry Lund, Kia F&F 27/11/17 who Enlisted: Keighley, Yorks.., Resided: Sutton-in Craven, Yorks, but he was with the West Riding's, not the RAMC and the 1911 census shows no one in the family that could be my man.

Headgardener, thank you also for your insightful feedback and also for checking the database for members of the RND, Royal marines and RN personnel.

Just a thought, you mention "he doesn't seem to have died abroad". Am I correct in thinking he would not have had an MIC issued if he had died before going overseas?

[Andy Wade]

Craven's Part in the Great War website just has a Stephen Lund but they do say it is not proven that it's the S. Lund on Sutton's War Memorial.

CPGW - Stephen Lund

I'd get in touch with Chris Foster as this is right up his alley, he might have done further research since the information on S. Lund was uploaded to the CPGW site. I've checked my archives from Keighley and The Worth Valley and I actually have a Stephen Lund picture but I can't make out his cap badge on this version. I'll take a look at the original digital photo for you and post a blow up of his cap if it looks anything like:

If my Stephen Lund picture above could be your man then a trip to Keighley Library might throw up some supporting text in the Keighley News if you check out his name in the card index. If you can't get there I might be able to take a gander this week for you.

And yes, it's 'Attached' to the Royal Naval Division

Edit:

I've looked at the original picture and it's as clear as mud. First impression is that Private Stephen Lund has a Duke of Wellington's WRR badge on his cap. Which would rather rule him out. (Someone tell me I'm wrong please)

Doesn't answer the question of why he doesn't appear in the CWGC database though. Will have to dig further with that one...

Edit again after poking around in Ancestry:

Name: Stephen Lund

Birth Place: Keighley, Yorks

Death Date: 24 Jul 1917

Death Location: France & Flanders

Enlistment Location: Keighley, Yorks

Rank: Private

Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers

Battalion: 24th Battalion (Tyneside Irish)

Number: 38780

Type of Casualty: Killed in action

Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

Comments: Formerly 13001, West Riding Regt.

It seems that Stephen Lund may not be our man.

Of course that's assuming that the 'RAMC Att RND' is correct on the war memorial. It wouldn't be the first error I've seen, but this is a big one if that's the case.

[headgardener]

Headgardener, thank you also for your insightful feedback and also for checking the database for members of the RND, Royal marines and RN personnel.

Just a thought, you mention "he doesn't seem to have died abroad". Am I correct in thinking he would not have had an MIC issued if he had died before going overseas?

Any man who served overseas would be entitled to campaign medals. A man who didn't serve overseas wouldn't, therefore no MIC. There are some exceptions to this, but it is true in almost every instance. My comment that he doesn't seem to have died abroad is based on the fact that he doesn't appear to be recorded on CWGC yet he does appear to have served abroad (service on attachment to the RND implies that he served in France during 1917-18; see Horatio2's earlier post). So whenever and wherever he died, it almost certainly was'nt serving abroad.

I've looked at the original picture and it's as clear as mud. First impression is that Private Stephen Lund has a Duke of Wellington's WRR badge on his cap. Which would rather rule him out. (Someone tell me I'm wrong please)

Doesn't answer the question of why he doesn't appear in the CWGC database though. Will have to dig further with that one...

Andy, the fact that his cap-badge might not be RAMC does not definately rule him out as a candidate; it may simply mean that his family supplied the best picture they had of him in uniform, and it happened to be the uniform of a unit that he served with before joining the RAMC. I've encountered lots of instances like this. Those small details (cap-badge, etc) seem to mean a lot to us due to the nature of our research, but they didn't mean so much to the men or their families. A clear good quality photo in a roll of honour was the most important thing. And they may have identified him very strongly with the previous unit that he served with, rather than a corps unit with a less 'distinct' identity.

And there are lots of very plausible reasons for him not appearing on the CWGC database; he may have left the army for a number of reasons before dying, or he may have been discharged and then died, possibly as a result of his sickness or injuries, and perhaps several years after the war. Or there may be a transcription error on the CWGC database (far from unusual, in my experience, and I'm not sure if anyone here has checked this). Or he may have served under a pseudonym.

Regarding the Stephen Lund who died in 1917, his MIC only shows service with D of Well's and Northumberland Fus. On balance I'd say he isn't your man. CWGC details HERE.

[Andy Wade]

I think you misunderstand HG, I meant that the Private S. Lund RAMC Att RND was missing from the CWGC database. My sentence isn't clear and it was late (hey, shoot me). Stephen Lund's CWGC details are in my first link. S. Lund RAMC Att RND doesn't seem to be there.

I am aware of the changes to cap badges in pictures of the men, a lot of whom might have only ever had one picture taken in their whole life.

I have one or two men in my database who are on a local memorial without being in CWGC records simply because they died after the cut off dates, but the locals thought they should be on their memorial as their criteria were different from the CWGC.

Main thing is that Stephen Lund is unlikely to be the S. Lund on the memorial so what I've done is try to rule this particular 'S.' Lund out.

[headgardener]

Andy,

I think we're both talking about the same thing; when I said 'there are lots of plausible reasons for him not appearing on CWGC' I was talking about S. Lund RAMC attd RND rather than Stephen Lund. Sorry, it was me not being clear. I'm the one who needs shooting, not you! Like I said, still plenty of scope for researching this one.

Names on war memorials, and which don't appear on CWGC, seem to be part of the life-blood of this forum. Just makes an interesting challenge for us.

[Chris Foster]

Andy,

Andrew contacted me about S Lund and I'm afraid we have also drawn a blank so far . I'd agree that the badge on the photo of Pte Stephen Lund looks like the Dukes.

I would also concur with both you and HG that this is not the S Lund whose name appears on the Sutton-in-Craven memorial.

We're still on the hunt, tracking down service men and women whom we have very little information on accept a name on a memorial. Maybe we'll find or be presented with, the missing link re Pte S Lund RAMC Att RND at some stage.

Regards

Chris

[Andy Wade]

Andy,

Andrew contacted me about S Lund and I'm afraid we have also drawn a blank so far . I'd agree that the badge on the photo of Pte Stephen Lund looks like the Dukes.

I would also concur with both you and HG that this is not the S Lund whose name appears on the Sutton-in-Craven memorial.

We're still on the hunt, tracking down service men and women whom we have very little information on accept a name on a memorial. Maybe we'll find or be presented with, the missing link re Pte S Lund RAMC Att RND at some stage.

Regards

Chris

HG, Agreed!

Hi Chris, thanks for that.

Did you get my email saying it was OK for CPGW to use the J. T. R. Midgley photo? I would send the larger version for you but fear it would disappear into the ether along with some other of my emails to you. I haven't had any from you so I think the problem still exists. My email still works for others. If you would like it, I've put the full version online here for you so you can just download it from there. Might be easier in the short term...

Edited to add:

I was going to offer you the Stephen Lund picture but since he's unlikely to be the one on Sutton W.M. there's not much point.

[Chris Foster]

We have a problem Houston re communication via email . Its typical I can make contact with Andrew in Australia. and not you, no more than 20 miles away We could almost shout to one another . Many thanks Andy for the use of the image. A great idea to post it as you've done .

Regards

Chris

[Andy Wade]

My pleasure Chris.

OK back on topic.

Andrew, if you like, this week I will go and see Christine Dowthwaite at Utley Cemetery office and see if she has any record on her ickle computer of an S. Lund, posibly from the Sutton Area, died between 1914 and 1923. She's an absolute mine of information and I'm sure will be pleased to help.

Edited to add;

Perhaps contacting BJay (on this forum) might be worth a try as she has a database of RAMC personnel. Try this thread:

RAMC Database

[sutton-in-craven]

Hi Andy, Chris Foster, HG and everyone else

Once again, thanks very much for all your efforts and feedback. Andy, I've contacted BJay with the same question so hopefully she may have a lead. Also I'd really appreciate it if you could have a chat with Christine at Utley Cemetery office when you get chance and see if anything can be uncovered.

I find it quite extraordinary that a soldier who fought & died for England less than 100 years ago can 'vanish' and apparently not be traceable. It's not like I'm trying to track down a Roman soldier from Caesar's army!

That all said, at least I now have a little more information about how the RAMC were attached to the RND etc. By the beginning of November this year I will have researched 39 of the 40 names on the Sutton-in-Craven war memorial - S. Lund excepted by the looks of things! So 39 isn't too bad

Thanks again, regards Andrew

[Verrico2009]

Andy,

I may have misread your post but I understand you to say that you can't find Stephen Lund on CWGC. This should be him (http://www.cwgc.org/...casualty=302458):-

Name: LUND

Initials: S

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Northumberland Fusiliers

Unit Text: 24th (Tyneside Irish) Bn.

Date of Death: 24/04/1917

Service No: 38780

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: B. 9.

Cemetery:FAMPOUX BRITISH CEMETERY

[Andy Wade]

I've photographed all the graves in Keighley and the Worth Valley cemeteries with a mention of war service, but haven't done this for Sutton as it's a bit out of my area. (I'm not sure know if Chris has already done this) I did take a look just a few weeks ago in St. Thomas's churchyard at the graves there and there were quite a few war memorial references, but I didn't have a camera with me and can't remember if there were any LUNDs. Next time I'm over there I'll make sure I have one and I'll be sure to check for any LUND names. It's not a big churchyard so it wouldn't take long to do.

I know a lady who was a LUND and I'll ask her if she can help for family references, and I also know a local researcher who has a truly vast collection of BMD references on his computer with something like 600,000 names at the last count.

[mmm45]

Andy when was the War Memorial erected? You(or someone in UK!) may have to have a look at local papers post 1918 he may have been discharged or a victim of flu epedimic,never served overseas so no MIC and have minor links throgh a family to Sutton...all sorts of possibilities I have a BWM to a Coldstreamer/Tunneller RE who survived the war and died in a mining accident in Castleford in 1922 and hes on Whitwood War Memorial!

Ady

[Andy Wade]

I think Sutton War Memorial was erected in 1923, so we're looking at a date range of 1914 to 1923 for the death of Private S. Lund.

I'm going down to Keighley library this week so I'll take a look, There's a great card indexing system for War references and civil references and I've already put feelers out with people I know to see what can be found in their records. Problem is that Sutton-in-Craven is more 'Craven Herald' territory than 'Keighley News' but you never know. I'm not sure how much information Keighley Library has for the Craven Herald newspaper.

Thanks Louise, got him.

[27thBN]

[

I find it quite extraordinary that a soldier who fought & died for England less than 100 years ago can 'vanish' and apparently not be traceable. It's not like I'm trying to track down a Roman soldier from Caesar's army!

Believe me RAMC RE RFA RGA are always the hardest to get info on .I do know exactly how you feel i have sold groups of really nice medals because i cant find anything on the soldier.

Cheers Tony