East Lancashire Division RFA (T)

[brianmorris547]

continuation:

The report from the Bolton Evening News 15/08/1917 and further info from the Bolton Chronicle 17/08/1917.

I also checked the Bolton Artillery Cenotaph in Nelson Sq and confirmed that he is named on that.

Brian

Edited 16 November , 2018 by brianmorris547

[Sars0785]

Brian,

 

I am so emotional right now, thank you.

 

This has brought a tears to my eyes.

 

 

[Sars0785]

Looking at your profile do you live in Blackpool ?

 

I would love to say thank you in person.

 

I am currently on a night shift, I work for the Ambulance Service so my shifts are rather odd.

 

Once my shifts are over if you would like to send me your contact details by a private message I will be in touch. 

 

You deserve a medal yourself for this.

[poortryon]

Hi,

I'd just like to add a couple of snippets to this emotive story, if I may?

 

You say in an earlier post that 'the war diary gives M33d3500 on the 11th July then just sheet 11 SE 4 on 24th July'. Looking at the war diary of 42nd division CRA for a later date later, dispositions report dated 26th October 1917 (attached), it shows 72nd Bde still in place, operating under 42nd Division at a location known as 'CARDINAL'. The HQ was at M.33.c.0.0, with A battery divided, 5 guns at S.3.a.58.82 and one at M.33.d.58.12. I attach the map from 42 Div HQ war diary that shows the exact locations of the division's guns. The locations for 72nd Brigade are in front of the positions marked for 175 Bde, and south-east of 211 Bde positions (my Grandfather). 72 Bde is not marked, so they may have moved on, although the documents I have make no mention of their departure from the group, and the positions marked for 175, 210 and 211 Bdes tally with the dispositions report.

 

I also attach an undated German aerial photograph of the British artillery positions. Although the map has German coordinates, I have studied the photo against the British map attached, and I am convinced that it shows the area around M.31.b, and the battery position marked as 'h' near the top of the photo is actually the position of A211, my Grandfather's battery at the time of the map, if not the photo. It shows the Germans know pretty well where the British guns were, hence their ability to target Herbert's battery.

 

Long after Herbert's death, I know, but it adds some colour, I hope.

 

Robin

1917-10 42 Div Arty Dispositions (26 Oct).pdf

[Sars0785]

Hi Robin,

 

That's really interesting thanks for that. So next question for you is have you managed to locate this to the present day? 

 

It all gives perspective doesn't it. You must be quite far into your own research, how long have you been working on it if you don't mind me asking?

[brianmorris547]

9 hours ago, Sars0785 said:

Looking at your profile do you live in Blackpool ?

 

I would love to say thank you in person.

 

 

Thank you

It's not necessary I'm glad that my index was able to assist. There was so much information about the Bolton Artillery first line and Reserve Brigades in the Bolton papers that I felt it should not go unrecorded. I am doing the same with RE War Diaries 1916.  

Brian

[Sars0785]

On 16/11/2018 at 06:54, brianmorris547 said:

Thank you

It's not necessary I'm glad that my index was able to assist. There was so much information about the Bolton Artillery first line and Reserve Brigades in the Bolton papers that I felt it should not go unrecorded. I am doing the same with RE War Diaries 1916.  

Brian

Hi Brian,

 

Sorry to bother you again here.

In your opinion do you think I would be able to find anything else out about Herbert with the information I now have, such as where he would have died, the name of the Hospital for example, only he is buried in Coxyde but the newspaper states he was immediately taken to hospital in France so it seems strange they would have buried him closer to the front?

Unless the paper got it wrong and he was in Hospital in Belgium still maybe in De Panne Hospital or Veurne both closer than France.

[brianmorris547]

I put his service number into FMP but it only came back with SDGW and CWGC details. There was no hit for hospital admissions (under British Army Medical Records) and the Register of Soldiers Effects just records Died of Wounds without giving a location. 

Brian

[Sars0785]

Thanks for taking the time to look again Brian.

 

You're a star.

 

Sarah 

[brianmorris547]

Sarah

I downloaded the WD of 72 Army Brigade RFA from the link in your posts on the other thread. The WD makes no mention that the Brigade moved from M 33 d 35 00 after 11/07/1917. I was in the area myself in 2015 and 2016 looking at the positions (on Robin's map - post 129).

I also checked the WD of the Commander Royal Artillery 15 Div. 72 Brigade on becoming an Army Brigade originally stayed under command of CRA 15 Div for tactical purposes but they do not get a mention after 04/02/1917. There is no mention of drafts from the Bolton Artillery Reserve Brigade, 332 Brigade, which was broken up in February 1917. I could not find a 1917 WD for the CRA 66 Div on Ancestry to see if there was any mention there. 

I will be in the library again tomorrow afternoon and I will check the Family Notices in the papers to see if there is any mention of a place of death.

Also the addresses mentioned in the papers Windsor Grove and Mornington Rd remain as they were 100 years ago and I will try and find where the Co-op shop on Stratford Ave was.

Brian

[Sars0785]

Brian, 

 

Thank you once again. I had also been looking on National Archives for the above mentioned diaries and seems nothing comes up after those date. I suppose there was so much movement between divisions at that time that it is very difficult to say unless they remained in position?

 

I have looked on google maps and yes I can find both Mornington Road and Windsor Grove addresses still in situ. 

The church is also still there but the primary school was demolished and rebuilt elsewhere. 

 

Stratford Avenue Co op is somewhat a mystery, also checked googlemaps and there does however seem to be a building which could have been a co op on the corner which is now a Coral betting shop but looks to me like it would have been Abbotsford Road.

 

Thanks Brian

[poortryon]

Hi Sarah,

 

I have a copy of the 66 Div CRA diary for 1917 referenced by Brian, and it does not seem to mention the Bolton Artillery or anything else of relevance, as far as I can see so far. I checked between Feb and August 1917, with no joy, but it was a bit rushed, so I’ll check again in slower time and report back.

 

Regarding your question - and no, I don’t mind at all - I have been researching this for some years now. However, that’s a bit misleading as there have been large gaps due to personal and professional pressures. However, I’m doing pretty well and am starting to write things up. Because my Grandad was a humble driver, and survived, he is never mentioned by name in any diaries, but I have enough evidence to conclude that he stayed with the Bolton Artillery from 1914 to 1918. Given that evidence, the story I am writing is of 211 Brigade, on the western front, and what it did, in the broadest sense. So, as well as simply knowing where it was at any particular time, I am determining what part it was playing at any time it was there, including who the brigade was supporting and why (infantry, artillery, division, corps, army etc). This requires a lot of reading and cross referencing, but is very rewarding and gives a perspective that is a little bit different to other stories. I say that not to boast, but simply because I am not looking only at a particular battery/brigade, fighting as part of a particular division, or at a particular battle or location, but at their role whoever they were with and whatever they were doing, even the ‘boring’ bits. Since artillery brigades often stayed in place when their own division’s infantry moved on, this means that their story covers that of many other divisions too, in a wide variety of locations and operations, and that’s what I find interesting.

 

It’s a long haul, though, so we’ll see how I get on!

 

I do have photographs of the battery location I indicated in my last post, taken when I visited a few years ago with my brother. There are still earthworks there, in fact, but you can’t be certain if they are relevant or even contemporary. Sadly, I can’t find those photos just now! I had a hard-drive crash a while ago and, even though I was sure I had a backup, I can’t find them! I’ll post them if I do. I live in Belgium, so may well visit again soon anyway.

 

Cheers

 

Robin

[brianmorris547]

I will also look at Palin - Dobson's History of the Bolton Artillery in the library. In October 1916 the Bolton papers reported that a Howitzer Battery had been formed from the Bolton Artillery Reserve Brigade, 332 Brigade, and had been sent to France. It came into action shortly afterwards. The Official History by PD records that "A" Battery of 332 Brigade had retrained as a Howitzer Battery and had been posted to 108 Brigade RFA. The shortfall was not made up with other Bolton Artillery reservists and 332 Brigade was broken up in February 1917. I did take copies of the 332 and 108 Brigade WDs at TNA to cover the transfer and gave these to the History Centre at the library. Some of 332 Brigade went to 42 Div RFA I think.

Brian

EDIT: The history of the Bolton Artillery by PD confirms that 332 Brigade was broken up in May 1917 but the men were sent to various Units (not specified). Gnr H Lee is mentioned in the Roll of Honour in the book. 

There are many names in the 42 Div HQ A&QMG WD 1917 - 19 under Honours and Rewards with Bolton Artillery 71xxxx numbers, five of them are possibly in my Bolton Artillery Reserve Brigade index so some of 332 did go to 210 and 211 Brigades of 42 Div. (Two drafts were however sent from the Reserve Brigades to the First Line in Egypt in 1915 and 1916).

There was a mention in the Family Notices of the Bolton papers but it just says Died in Hospital. It is personal so I will send it by pm to Sarah.

Also the building on the corner of Stratford Ave and Chorley Old Rd, now Corals, was a Co-op.

Brian

Edited 20 November , 2018 by brianmorris547

[Sars0785]

20 hours ago, poortryon said:

Hi Sarah,

 

I have a copy of the 66 Div CRA diary for 1917 referenced by Brian, and it does not seem to mention the Bolton Artillery or anything else of relevance, as far as I can see so far. I checked between Feb and August 1917, with no joy, but it was a bit rushed, so I’ll check again in slower time and report back.

 

Regarding your question - and no, I don’t mind at all - I have been researching this for some years now. However, that’s a bit misleading as there have been large gaps due to personal and professional pressures. However, I’m doing pretty well and am starting to write things up. Because my Grandad was a humble driver, and survived, he is never mentioned by name in any diaries, but I have enough evidence to conclude that he stayed with the Bolton Artillery from 1914 to 1918. Given that evidence, the story I am writing is of 211 Brigade, on the western front, and what it did, in the broadest sense. So, as well as simply knowing where it was at any particular time, I am determining what part it was playing at any time it was there, including who the brigade was supporting and why (infantry, artillery, division, corps, army etc). This requires a lot of reading and cross referencing, but is very rewarding and gives a perspective that is a little bit different to other stories. I say that not to boast, but simply because I am not looking only at a particular battery/brigade, fighting as part of a particular division, or at a particular battle or location, but at their role whoever they were with and whatever they were doing, even the ‘boring’ bits. Since artillery brigades often stayed in place when their own division’s infantry moved on, this means that their story covers that of many other divisions too, in a wide variety of locations and operations, and that’s what I find interesting.

 

It’s a long haul, though, so we’ll see how I get on!

 

I do have photographs of the battery location I indicated in my last post, taken when I visited a few years ago with my brother. There are still earthworks there, in fact, but you can’t be certain if they are relevant or even contemporary. Sadly, I can’t find those photos just now! I had a hard-drive crash a while ago and, even though I was sure I had a backup, I can’t find them! I’ll post them if I do. I live in Belgium, so may well visit again soon anyway.

 

Cheers

 

Robin

Hi Robin,

 

Wow that's a lot of work but when you enjoy what you do it is a pleasure isn't it.

It is so fabulous that you are carrying on his story in this way. I would love to read it some day. Like you say it is a different perspective from the norm.

 

I have the Neiupoort Sector book on order as a Xmas present so maybe this will also help me to understand as this is very early days for me. I have found a new passion here doing this and what I have found so far with the help of yourself and Brian has been astonishing.

 

There is so much information just on this forum alone.

 

Sorry to hear about your harddrive crash this is also one of my fears so I think I will add another one to my Xmas list just incase!!

 

That's also quite handy you living in Belgium for your research. I will organise another trip there myself next year amd have a look at the place in more detail.

 

Regards 

Sarah

[Sars0785]

Thanks Brian, 

 

I am currently printing all this off for my Uncle, Herbert's nephew. He will be very pleased with this.

 

Yes that's the Coral I mentioned. 

 

This is great and thank you for the family notice, the chain may have been broken but I will keep his memory living.

 

Regards 

Sarah

[Sars0785]

Brian,

 

I stumbled across this on Facebook. An event this Saturday at Bolton Library.

 

Unfortunately I will not be able to attend as I am working but thought it may be of some interest to you.

[brianmorris547]

Sarah

Thank you for this. The History Centre has done a great deal of work over the past number of years to identify every soldier from the borough who served in WW1, using the papers and Rolls of Honour etc. I gave my Bolton Artillery indexes to the HC some years ago with the War Diaries that I had copied at TNA. This was in the days before they came available on Ancestry. My indexes have been made reundant because all names from all regiments are, or are in the process of being, indexed.

I have not got anything for my RE grandfather only his Field Service Postcard dated 05/09/1916 to say he was wounded. During my research into him in the papers I went off on two tangents: The Bolton Artillery and the disastrous diversionary attack by 170 Infantry Brigade at Poelkapelle on 26/10/1917, which was Bolton's worst day for casualties in the Great War. 

Brian.

[kevmc]

On 20/09/2018 at 15:46, Michael Kerr said:

kevmc, hi sorry but I just noticed this thread and you were talking about your grandfather Henry McGee. My name is Michael Kerr and I live in Wollongong, New South Wales, Australia and it seems we are related although distantly. Your great-grandfather Thomas McGee was the older brother to my great-grandmother Margaret McGee who married Dan Colvin, their daughter Elizabeth married my grandfather Patrick Kerr and they emigrated to Australia. I don't know if you are still interested in pursuing information on your lost relatives but as I am a newbie I cannot PM you but I also would like to fill in some gaps on Thomas's family. I shall try and attach a photo I have of Thomas McGee and his four children which must have been taken around the time of their mother's death. They are from left, Henry, your grandfather, John who never married and died in 1961, Thomas, his daughter Sarah and the eldest son James who is seated, who died in 1944. I was very interested in the military career of Henry and would like to know more. Sorry to hijack this interesting thread.

 

Hello Michael

I have not used the forum for many months so unfortunately I missed your posting. Viewed your message only yesterday 24th June 2019.

 

I hope I can make contact to compare information on family. I completed a family tree about 9 years ago. My interest was mainly linked to Henry. I will keep this subject under review in case you come back to it and leave another message. I note that person to person contact may not be available to you in view of the number of postings. If I see a response and you still cannot use the Personal Message feature I will create a temporary e-mail account and from that we will be able to swap family information. I do not recommend that you put your normal e-mail account details for public viewing.

 

The photograph is very important to me as I had none of the family.

Best wishes

 

Kevin McGee

[Guest]

Hi Kevin, I just saw your reply, that photo is the only one I have of Henry although I think I have one or two more of James. My brother is the keen family historian and I help when I get the time. We recently through Ancestry found some Colvin relatives and most of the pictures come from John Reynolds who lives in Glasgow and is the grandson of James. I shall follow this up in a few days as I have a few things on my family plate at the moment but I am pleased you responded. Here is another older photo of James with his first wife Maria Shanks who died in 1918, not sure when it was taken but I can make out a Fred Ash who had studios at Manchester and Blackpool and the two children were Margaret born 1906 and Richard born 1908 so probably taken around 1910-1911.

Regards

Michael Kerr

[MaxD]

Dan welcome

 

Usually best to start a specific thread with your man's name and regiment but just to begin with we need to check out what you have.  The Lancashire batteries were in different brigades, Burnley was one of the batteries in 1st East Lancs Brigade (later 210 Brigade) and Bolton was the title of the 3rd East Lancs Brigade (later 212 Brigade) which had 3 batteries to start with.  There is a medal card at the National Archives for a Gerard Doherty whose second number was allocated to 211  Brigade and to a 331 Brigade.  211 was the Manchester artillery brigade, 331 was a second line East Lancs Brigade formed in 1915.  

 

The Gerard Doherty went to Egypt in September 1914 so was already serving or was a reservist at the start of the war.  211 B

 

 

[brianmorris547]

This page from TLLT is helpful.

The Blackburn Artillery (1 ELB) was renamed 210 Brigade of 42 Div and The Bolton Artillery (3 ELB) was eventually renamed as 211 Brigade after originally being renamed 212 Brigade from May to December 1916.

Brian

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/batteries-and-brigades-of-the-royal-field-artillery/ccx-ccxi-ccxii-and-ccxiii-howitzer-brigades-42nd-divisional-artillery/

Edited 30 December , 2019 by brianmorris547

[MaxD]

This (Gerald Doherty) has been continued on another thread and taken on a bit.

 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/277739-gerald-doherty-royal-field-artillery/?tab=comments#comment-2834799

 

Max

[brianmorris547]

This photograph of the Officers of the Bolton Artillery is from the Manchester Courier 31/07/1915. It shows Col (C E) Walker in the centre and names the other Officers as, to his right, Major Nall, Cpt Adamson, Cpt Brown and on his left Major Higgin, Major Dobson and Cpt Black (should be Cpt A Block). A similar photo was printed in the Bolton Journal 23/07/1915. From memory I think there is a slight difference. Major Dobson is Major B Palin Dobson who wrote the Official History of the Bolton Artillery. He was invalided home in June 1915 so I think the photo was Egypt rather than Gallipoli.

 

[brianmorris547]

Some time ago this thread became the unofficial East Lancashire RFA (TF) thread. On 01/09/1915 the Manchester Courier printed this photograph. It does not name the Unit but it is probably the Reserve Brigade of the Bolton Artillery (2/3 East Lancs). In May and June 1915 the Bolton papers had reported that the 2/3 were to move from Southport to Sussex and a Third Line, then in Bolton, would move to Southport. On 25/06/1915 the Bolton Journal reported that Cricket Tackle was wanted by the Bolton Artillery and any available should be sent to Gnr Pemberton of 20 Bty (2/3). The papers later reported that 2/3 were to move from Buxted to Forest Row in August and that Major Palin Dobson (see above photograph) would join them there. 

[brianmorris547]

I have re activated my interest in the Bolton Artillery and I am trying to attach any photographs to this thread. Since this thread is all about the East Lancashire Div RFA (T) later 42 Div RFA perhaps the Mods might consider a change of Title. This photograph of the Bolton Artillery 3 East Lancs Brigade RFA (T) was posted by Forum Member Ultima some years ago in a thread called Identification of Shells and Guns. The man kneeling on the left (as we look) is Robert S Dixon. It is believed that the photo was taken in Egypt but Robert also served in Gallipoli. He was k in a in France on 25/10/1917. The man next to him is believed to be David Hirst, relative of Forum Member Poortryon. 

Brian