G.Driver 10thLF Posted 3 August , 2010 Share Posted 3 August , 2010 Hi All to what extent was avalanche warefare used in the alps? how was it created? through charges or direct gunfire? any info at all on this tactic would be great. if this is in the wrong forum cat please move it to its home - Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heid the Ba Posted 4 August , 2010 Share Posted 4 August , 2010 Avalanches are not the easiest things to start in most conditions. The slope has to be gentle enough for snow to build up, but steep enough for it to accelerate once moving. The snow has to be heavy enough to slide, the weather has to be right etc. In most conditions avalanches are very difficult to initiate. They also tend to move down gullies and other obvious routes so mountain troops would be well aware of where not to be in likely avalanche conditions. The book The Winter War mentions them in passing and comments on one particular day when 10,000 men were killed by them, no details were given but I think that point was footnoted. It is more likely that these were troops moving too or from the front than at the front. The figure commonly bandied about by ski guides is that 95% of people caught in avalanches either set it off themselves or someone in their party did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 August , 2010 Share Posted 4 August , 2010 The book The Winter War mentions them in passing and comments on one particular day when 10,000 men were killed by them, no details were given but I think that point was footnoted. No in one month -December 1916 "Hundreds of Austrian troops stationed in a barracks near the Gran Poz summit of Mount Marmolada were in particular danger. Although the camp was well-placed to protect it from Italian attack, it was situated directly under a mountain of unstable snow. On December 13, approximately 200,000 tons of snow, rock and ice plunged down the mountain directly onto the barracks. About 200 troops were pulled to safety, but 300 others died. Only a few of the bodies were recovered. As the heavy snow and high winds continued over the next week, incidents like the one at Marmolada happened with disturbing frequency. Entire regiments were lost in an instant. The bodies of some victims weren’t found until spring. The best estimate is that somewhere between 9,000 and 10,000 soldiers died by the end of December 1916 because of the avalanches." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 4 August , 2010 Share Posted 4 August , 2010 Every so occasionally in the Rocky Mountains of the U.S. 105mm howitzers are used in attempts to initiate avalanches under controlled conditions instead of waiting for them to break loose without warning. It's not done often but it is from time to time. When Interstate Highway 64 was built over the Blue Ridge Mountains west of Charlottesville, Virginia in the 1960s the bed of the road undercut a layer of shale. Once it began sliding downhill a 30-foot-tall steel mesh fence had to be added to the side by the mountain to prevent cars from being hit by falling rock. One of my geology professors in college said the highway engineers should have asked them first before they began bulldozing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 4 August , 2010 Share Posted 4 August , 2010 I caught a programme the other day on BBC4 about avalanches. Whilst not WW1 specific it did contain a part about the use of avalanches during the WW1. Very interesting. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b008vrwk/10_Things_You_Didnt_Know_About..._Avalanches/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heid the Ba Posted 4 August , 2010 Share Posted 4 August , 2010 Thanks Centurion, sometimes I have a memory like a whatsitsname. "As the heavy snow and high winds continued . . ." classic avalanche weather, particularly early or late in the season when it is warmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 August , 2010 Share Posted 4 August , 2010 In the fighting over the Col di Lana in the Dolomites 1916/17 about 18,000 were killed, only about 6,000 of these were through military action - the rest succumbed to avalanches not caused by human action - Wachtler I think the deliberately caused avalanches may be largely mythical either that or confusion with casualties of the last great KuK offensive in the mountains , the name of which translates as Operation Avalanche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heid the Ba Posted 6 August , 2010 Share Posted 6 August , 2010 Then again, sometimes the little grey cells don't let me down. The White War p204 "One day alone, 13 December 1916, known as White Friday, some 10,000 soldiers perished in avalanches." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 6 August , 2010 Share Posted 6 August , 2010 Then again, sometimes the little grey cells don't let me down. The White War p204 "One day alone, 13 December 1916, known as White Friday, some 10,000 soldiers perished in avalanches." Which is incorrect - it marked the start of a period of weather that led to 9-10,000 deaths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Driver 10thLF Posted 7 August , 2010 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2010 Cheers guys ill check the book out! i know of the big day when avalanches killed almost 10,000 men. but after that wasnt it used as a weapon by both sides? ive seen films from the period showing gunners shelling mountain ranges to create avalanches. Also its on a program on bbc iplayer atm. check it out http://beta.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b008vrwk/10_Things_You_Didnt_Know_About..._Avalanches/ - Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 8 August , 2010 Share Posted 8 August , 2010 My knowledge lies in mining engineering rather than a meteorologist but I'd guess that the conditions to produce an avalanche as opposed to a settling of unstable snow have to be quite restrictive, as has already been suggested. It's clear that suitable, unstable slopes can be triggered but if the conditions are so precise it's difficult to see how this could be done as a routine technique. You might be able to take advantage of poor placement of enemy troops and bury them but I think it's unlikely that avalanches could be used as a weapon. Pete1052 mentions shale. It's a sedimentary rock but it's barely any strength if it's exposed to the weather. It's composed of fine silts and has a lot of clay particles, which swell when they get wet. With clays having a very low friction angle it doesn't take much to make the mass start to move. Once it's started to move it's impossible to stop until it does so naturally. There's a hill in Castleton, Derbyshire, called Mam Tor, locally known as the shivering mountain. It's all shale and it's been moving since the end of the last ice-age - 8,000 years ago. There used to be a road running up the face but it was destroyed so often that the authorities abandoned it about 20 years ago. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 8 August , 2010 Share Posted 8 August , 2010 My knowledge lies in mining engineering rather than a meteorologist but I'd guess that the conditions to produce an avalanche as opposed to a settling of unstable snow have to be quite restrictive, as has already been suggested. It's clear that suitable, unstable slopes can be triggered but if the conditions are so precise it's difficult to see how this could be done as a routine technique. You might be able to take advantage of poor placement of enemy troops and bury them but I think it's unlikely that avalanches could be used as a weapon. I agree. I suspect that " films from the period showing gunners shelling mountain ranges" are just gunners shelling positions on mountain ranges and nothing to do with avalanches. There were certainly many casualties due to natural avalanches as well as exposure, starvation (when cut off), falls etc. I've seen figures that suggest that in the mountains at least twice as many casualties were caused by 'natural causes' as by enemy action. The Italians seem to have been worst off as many of their light infantry assigned to the mountains were not trained or equipped for the environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 8 August , 2010 Share Posted 8 August , 2010 It occurred to me that if an artillery duel happened to set off or even just co-incide with an avalanche, it would be easy to assume that one deliberately caused the other and it is not a misconception which the gunners would be eager to correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 8 August , 2010 Share Posted 8 August , 2010 <Chuckle!> Why spoil a good story with facts? Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzmaximilian Posted 11 October , 2010 Share Posted 11 October , 2010 Which is incorrect - it marked the start of a period of weather that led to 9-10,000 deaths As far as I can remember, the figure of 10,000 deaths covers the entire Alps, including French and Swiss. The Black Friday of 13 December 1916 was caused by a sudden increase of temperatures after a whole week of heavy snowfalling. Avalanches hit places all around the entire Alps the never experienced avalanches in human memory, wipeing away villages and huts that were there since ages. I read over 20 books (including diaries, memories and history books written immediately after the war) and none of them reports of an avalanche purposedly caused to cause damage to the enemy. In a set of instructions issued to Italian alpine troops during winter 1915 it is suggested to throw hangranades or to bomb dangerous places that could be swept by an avalanche before large parties cross the area. Franz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 20 October , 2010 Share Posted 20 October , 2010 In Slovenija, on the northern side of the Virsic Pass (accents missing on the "s" and the "c" of Virsic.), where the road climbs up to the 6000 foot (about 1800 meter) pass, which was the route along which supplies, troops, etc. passed south to the front in the vicinity of Caparetto / Kobarid (all of this is in the Julian Alps), there is a Russian-style wooden church on the west side of the road, built to remember about 300 Russian POWs of the Austrians who were killed in an avalanche while detailed there to build/improve the rather remarkable road up to the pass. Unfortunately I don't have a date for this event. My Slovene climbing guide has a Russian name; his father was a Russian POW who had the sense to remain in Slovenija when WW I ended; I met him when he was 95. Anyone with interest in this, post, and I will bother to break out a map and post a more detailed and specific bit of information on this. I don't know what triggered the building of the chapel; the Slovenes were/are Catholic but probably were quite sympathetic to the Russian POWs. Bob Lembke Franz; Do you prefer Grappa to nuclear energy? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzmaximilian Posted 15 November , 2010 Share Posted 15 November , 2010 ................ Franz; Do you prefer Grappa to nuclear energy? Bob I definitely do! Franz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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