5th London Regiment C. F. Russell 548074

[Guest shaun01261]

I am trying to find anything out about C. F. Russell 548074 of the 5th London Regiment & Royal air force.I do know me receved a war medal and a victory medal but i would really like to know things like when me joined up and where he went and what he did and anything you know about him and the 5th London Regiment.

[bmac]

Suggest you contact member erniecrisp. He is hugely knowledgeable on the LRB (5th Londons).

[chrrip]

Russell was sent to France as a teenager in a draft which joined the 1/15 Londons on 1.4.18 so he did not serve overseas with the 5th. The draft was about platoon size (50), one of several 5th platoons consisting of 18 & 19 year olds sent to france following the German Spring Offensive. Other platoons joined 3 RB, 8 londons & 5th West Yorks for example. One of the documents in the Imperial War Museum LRB Collection is ab account of the doings on R L Angel who was 19 when joined 1/15th Londons in the same draft. Good account if you want details; Angel was a stretcher bearer who won MM; ended up a Captain, Quartermaster for 1 LRB in the desert 1942; for more details on these platoons get a copy of Mitchinson's Gentlemen and Officers, published by IWM. Obviously he transferred to the RAF at some stage but I have no info on this

regards Chris

[Rutherford]

Charles A Rutherford (1).pdf

Russell was sent to France as a teenager in a draft which joined the 1/15 Londons on 1.4.18 so he did not serve overseas with the 5th. The draft was about platoon size (50), one of several 5th platoons consisting of 18 & 19 year olds sent to france following the German Spring Offensive. Other platoons joined 3 RB, 8 londons & 5th West Yorks for example. One of the documents in the Imperial War Museum LRB Collection is ab account of the doings on R L Angel who was 19 when joined 1/15th Londons in the same draft. Good account if you want details; Angel was a stretcher bearer who won MM; ended up a Captain, Quartermaster for 1 LRB in the desert 1942; for more details on these platoons get a copy of Mitchinson's Gentlemen and Officers, published by IWM. Obviously he transferred to the RAF at some stage but I have no info on this

regards Chris

Dear Chris,

I am trying to research my Great Grandfather Charles Alfred Rutherford's Service Record. I know he was born on 21 September 1882 and died in June 1937. I have 2 photos of him in uniform which looks tropical and he is wearing what looks like a Fusiliers cap badge on his forage cap. The reverse of the photograph says 'Charles Alfred Rutherford London Fusiliers'.

My sister has unearthed the follwing on the National Archives for WWI service and found the following records for a Charles A Rutherford in the 'London Regiment' in the medal cards 1914-1920:

Corps Regiment N° Rank

London Regiment 5967 Private

London Regiment 632931 Private

London Regiment 1733 Lance Corporal

Military Provost Staff Corps T-2264 Serjeant

I would love to know when he enlisted and where he served. In addition I assume that he was in the City London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) and he either saw service in India or Mesopotamia as there is a pith helmet next to him the photo that I cannot upload. Did he see service in WW1 for example with the London Regiment and which Battalion?

I would be grateful for any help that you can give me on this research

Kind regards

Sam

[chrrip]

hi Sam

London Regiment Royal Fusiliers were 1st to 4th London Regiments; the six digit number looks like 19th London Regiment number. 2nd Battalion of some of these regiments did serve in Mespot and/or Egypt/Palestine. If you can get six digit number verified that will get you started. Two four digit number suggests he was transferred between London Regiments before Feb 1917. If his medals were issued by London District then his BWM record sheetwill show overseas dates with which London units; if the first four digit number was for 1/4 Londons then maybe he was pre war territorial

Hope there are others out there to give you more than this

Chris

[chrrip]

had a quick look on Ancestry for Rutherford's medal index card; one I found had only 5967 and 632931 numbers; both 20 london Regiment. 2nd Battalion was in 60 division; there is a history of this Division reprinted by the naval & Military Press. 2/20 served in Mespot & Palestine. The Medal index card gives you the sheet reference for his BWM/victory medals; get the sheet from NA because it will tell you when and where he served oversees with which unit(s); this info unique to london Regiment. Chris

[Rutherford]

hi Sam

London Regiment Royal Fusiliers were 1st to 4th London Regiments; the six digit number looks like 19th London Regiment number. 2nd Battalion of some of these regiments did serve in Mespot and/or Egypt/Palestine. If you can get six digit number verified that will get you started. Two four digit number suggests he was transferred between London Regiments before Feb 1917. If his medals were issued by London District then his BWM record sheetwill show overseas dates with which London units; if the first four digit number was for 1/4 Londons then maybe he was pre war territorial

Hope there are others out there to give you more than this

Chris

Hi Chris,

Many thanks for your swift response. I will see if I can get some more info on the medal sheet from my sister as my attempts to search the National Archives drew a blank. I will let you know what we come up with.

Kind regards

Sam

[Rutherford]

Hi Chris,

Many thanks for your swift response. I will see if I can get some more info on the medal sheet from my sister as my attempts to search the National Archives drew a blank. I will let you know what we come up with.

Kind regards

Sam

Hi Chris,

I have downloaded the medal cards from the will attach to this note if I can. The details are:

Catalogue ref Description Image ref Size (kb) Price (£)

Download

WO 372/17 Medal card of Rutherford, Charles ACorps:London Regiment Regiment No:5967Rank: Private...134772 / 226332812.00

WO 372/17 Medal card of Rutherford, Charles ACorps:London Regiment Regiment No:1733Rank: Lance Corporal...134771 / 226332812.00

Does this tell us anything more about where he served? I can only see one date on one medal card wich is March 1915? It would be nice to know:

1. When and where he enlisted

2. Which Regt, Bn, Coy etc

3. Theatres of service/campaign medals awarded (I can't make out from the medal card what the medals are?)

4. Date of discharge and reason

Kind regards

Sam

[Rutherford]

Hi Chris,

I have downloaded the medal cards from the will attach to this note if I can. The PDF is too big to upload but I am happy to send it to by other means if you think you can help? I have attached a word doc with the Charles Alfred Rutherford London Regiment - Medal Card.doc details I have extrapolated from the medal card which may help.

Rutherford Charles A

20 London Regiment

Private 5967

do(?) 632931

Victory TP 20/101 P03 (?) 288

British do do (?)

Rutherfdrd C A

1 London Regiment

LCpl/Acting Sgt *1733

777 (?) PSC Sgt T2264

Victory *MPS 101 B page 46

British do do

15 Star 977(or M?)/PSC/1c page 11

Theatre of war first arrived in 1

Date therein 1-3-15

The details are:

Catalogue ref Description Image ref Size (kb) Price (£)

Download

WO 372/17 Medal card of Rutherford, Charles ACorps:London Regiment Regiment No:5967Rank: Private...134772 / 226332812.00

WO 372/17 Medal card of Rutherford, Charles ACorps:London Regiment Regiment No:1733Rank: Lance Corporal...134771 / 226332812.00

Does this tell us anything more about where he served? I can only see one date on one medal card wich is March 1915? It would be nice to know:

1. When and where he enlisted

2. Which Regt, Bn, Coy etc

3. Theatres of service/campaign medals awarded (I I think this is the Victory Medal and possibly 1915 Star if he is the same C A Rutherford in the next medal card but has neem promoted to LCpl/Acting Sgt?)

4. Date of discharge and reason

Kind regards

Sam

[Rutherford]

Sgt Charles Alfred Rutherford London Regiment

Chris,

Just managed to speak to my Grandmother who returned from holiday today! Her father was definately in Malta (which might suggest 1st Bn London Regiment?) which would explain the tropical uniform and pith helmet in the photo I have but is too big to upload. 1 London Regt was TF I understand, so would he be entilted to the TF silver badge/medal? He was badly wounded in the head during WW1 (no idea what year or in which action) and my grandmother recalls a large scar on his head and his daily medication for the remainder of his life. She suggests this was the result of shrapnel still in his skull. After the war he transferred to the Military Provost and was a SSgt or Sgt based in Aldershot at the Military Prison. Born in Marleybone on 21st September 1882.

1/1st (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers)

August 1914 : at Handel Street in Bloomsbury. Part of 1st London Brigade, 1st London Division. Moved on mobilisation to guarding the London-Newhaven railway.

4 September 1914 : sailed with Brigade from Southampton to Malta, arriving Valetta 14 September.

11 February 1915 : left Malta, arrived at Avonmouth on 21 February.

11 March 1915 : landed at Le Havre and joined the 25th Brigade in 8th Division.

8 February 1916 : transferred to 167th Brigade in 56th (London) Division.

6 February 1918 : absorbed the disbanded 2/1st Bn and renamed 1st Bn.

She left his medals with her sister in law and never saw them again but remembers 3 which woudl fit in with the medal card (BWM, Victory Medal and 1915 Star). I wonder whether we can find out if he was enetitled to the TF badge/medal?

I have promised to give her the output from this research so anything else that you can tell me would very helpful. Date and place of enlistment, where he served in France and what actions. Where he was wounded and under what circumstances? Was he invalided home in 1915 (no further campaign medals) and when recovered transferred to the MP etc.

Kind regards

Sam

[chrrip]

Hi Sam

Good to see both MICs. 1 Londons were affiliated to City of London Regiment, Royal Fusiliers. Date of 10.3.15 was when he landed in France almost certainly with 1/1st who disembarked at Le Havre that day. They had come from Malta, sent there in Sept 14 to relieve regular battalion there. This could explain the headgear. The low number and rank suggest he was a pre war volunteer. Looks like this man a better match for your inf0?

Chris

[Rutherford]

Hi Sam

Good to see both MICs. 1 Londons were affiliated to City of London Regiment, Royal Fusiliers. Date of 10.3.15 was when he landed in France almost certainly with 1/1st who disembarked at Le Havre that day. They had come from Malta, sent there in Sept 14 to relieve regular battalion there. This could explain the headgear. The low number and rank suggest he was a pre war volunteer. Looks like this man a better match for your inf0?

Chris

Hi Chris,

Any idea where I go from here? In March 1915 it looks like 1 Londons were part of 8Div but moved to 56(London) Div in 1916. If we assume that because he only has a 1915 Star and no campaign medals thereafter that he was wounded sometime in 1915?

Do you think I should try and research the 8Div war diaries and not the London's war diaries in 56 Div records to see if we can find a rceord of him in France or the action in which he sustained his head wound?

Sam