Nurse at RM Infirmary, Deal

[Leofwine]

Hi,

Does anyone know how I could find out about a nurse at the Royal Marines Infirmary in Deal, Kent just before and maybe during WWI? Her name was Mabel Ada Barr (Busby before June 1909). She maried a Royal Marine and I wonder if they met in the infirmary. I'm assuming a female nurse would not have a military record? Can anyone help me find any records of her there?

I have these two pics putting her there as a nurse.

Larger versions here

Photo taken at Franklin & Sons, Deal

Larger versions here

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

[Sue Light]

I find this a bit confusing. The top picture, which is dated 1913 shows three members of Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service. Actually only one has the QARNNS badge on, but I'm assuming that all three were of the service. Service records exist for these women, very much in line with other RN records, and can be found at The National Archives, ADM104/161, which covers the period 1894 to 1929 for regular members of the service. Members of the wartime reserve have a different reference.

However, the second picture is of a civilian nurse, and not a member of QARNNS. Also, regular members of QARNNS were not allowed to continue to serve after marriage. That suggests to me that she cannot be one of the nurses in the 1913 picture unless by that time she had been widowed and returned afterwards. You may know the date of the second picture, but I would put it quite early, probably prior to 1910.

So she could have been a member of QARNNS and returned after marriage to continue to work in some capacity as a civilian; she might never have been a member of QARNNS, but worked as a civilian at the hospital both before and after her marriage. But somehow I don't feel happy with her being one of the 1913 nurses. It would certainly be worth checking the records at TNA - it was a very small service, particularly pre-war with only 47 members in total between 1906 and 1911, so easy to find (or not find) what you're looking for. I'd be interested in any results, either positive or negative.

Sue

[Leofwine]

Well that's thrown a potential spanner in the works, albeit a helpful one!

I will admit that, knowing nothing about nursing history, I had assumed from the full length portrait of her she was the connection to the infirmary picture. Unfortunately the owner of the photos never put and identification on the reverse of 99% of the photos.

I'm not sure of the date of the photo of her in nurse's uniform, but someone suggested it might be about 1910, but they said they didn't know much about nurses from that period (they were more knowledgeable on everyday clothes. If you have a more likely date I'd love to know. I do have approximate dates for a few others of her:

Apr 1915 (child's age on the back, and I have her birthday so pretty sure on that date)

c.1909

With her as a nurse marrying a Royal Marine in 1909 I had assumed she was the connection with the Infirmary. They remained married until her death in 1949 (he died in 1977) so from what you are saying she couldn't have been a nurse in the infirmary in 1913, so back to the drawing board on that. It seems an odd photo to have without a connection though. Her husband was on HMS Nelson from Jan 1913 to Jan 1914 so I don't think he would be on the infirmary staff. The mystery deepens!

[Sue Light]

I see that Mabel Busby was born early in 1883. The full-length photo is undoubtedly her, so at some time she did train as a nurse, and probably in Deal or nearby. It was usual for women to start their training some time after they were twenty-one, so the photo is most likely taken between 1904 and 1908. The style of uniform and the length of the dress are consistent with that date. The style was fairly unchanged since the 1890s, though her age makes it unlikely to be before 1903/4. There is no register of nurses for that period, and although a three year nurse training was the 'best,' it was also possible for women to train for shorter periods, or of course, not finish their training at all. To me, the uniform looks rather new, and these photos were often taken right at the beginning of training, or on qualification. I tend to think that this is the former, though I'm really only guessing. But she could certainly have fitted in three years before her marriage.

There were often civilian nurses working in military hospitals of all sorts, so she could have worked there before her marriage, and possibly after, and at least you have a connection both to Deal and to the Royal Marines, if not to the hospital. Maybe that photo was taken because of a connection to one of the men in the photo (though not the one you want), and nothing to do with the nurses. The photos are lovely though, regardless of the continuing mystery.

Sue

[headgardener]

The group photo doesn't come out terribly well on my screen, but isn't that her towards the centre of the 2nd row? (standing just behind and to the left of the nurse sitting in the right-middle of the front row)

[Sue Light]

I think you could be right, though I can't see it clearly enough to be sure.

Sue

[Leofwine]

Well, if nothing else it help me dates her photo in uniform, so thanks for that.

As for men in the photo, her husband's record probably rules him out. His father was an ex-Marine from Deal who left in 1900 and re-enlisted in 1915. I wonder if he worked in the infirmary between those dates?

c.1889

c. 1915-19

I suppose another possibility would be the eldest daughter Susannah (on the right in the last photo - I believe she was still unmarried in the 1920s, I wonder if she was a nurse?)

[Leofwine]

The group photo doesn't come out terribly well on my screen, but isn't that her towards the centre of the 2nd row? (standing just behind and to the left of the nurse sitting in the right-middle of the front row)

Looking at the original it is much clearer than the scan, I'll try re-scanning it and try and post a clearer version tomorrow (the joys of only having a cheap scanner, sometimes the scan quality is not great!)

It would be fascinating to know who they all are, but I doubt the records have survived. I assume it is a staff photo.

[headgardener]

It would be fascinating to know who they all are, but I doubt the records have survived. I assume it is a staff photo.

You'd almost certainly be able to find the names of the officers and possibly the senior nursing staff (warrant officers - not too sure about nursing sisters) by reference to the Navy List (published quarterly); check for the Infirmary at Deal in the section that lists Naval Institutions and ships, and check both the last 1/4 of 1913 and 1st 1/4 of 1914. Should be there.

[Leofwine]

It's taken far longer than I'd hoped, but I've finally got access to a better scanner and have rescanned the photos and the large versions are much clearer now. Just click the link to the flickr page they are on and press the actions button and choose view all sizes for larger versions.

Still no luck identifying people as I couldn't find the Navy List. Is it available online or do I need to look elsewhere?

[headgardener]

Still no luck identifying people as I couldn't find the Navy List. Is it available online or do I need to look elsewhere?

No, not available online. It was a quarterly publication, it'll probably be held by large institutions like the Imperial War Museum, some of the various naval museums, TNA, Guildhall Library, some local record offices, etc. If you ask nicely on the 'look-up' section of this site then someone might be able to help you out with this.

[Jim Strawbridge]

Larger versions here

I have the November 1913 Navy List.

Royal Marine Infirmary, Deal

Fleet Surgeon Robert Hill, C.V.O.

Staff Surgeon William R. Harrison

Surgeon Gordon A. Jackson, M.B., B.A.

Nursing Sister Miss Eva M. K'Eogh

Nursing Sister Miss Mary Bartlett

Nursing Sister Miss Rosa Northcote

Civilian Dental Surgeon Andrew Lawrey

[Leofwine]

Thanks for that list I assume they will be the ones in the front row. I wonder if there is anywhere that would have records of the others.

I noticed that in addition to the 'civilian' women there are some men also not in uniform. I wonder if they were ex-Marines who worked there or were also fully civilian? Any ideas?

[headgardener]

There are 3 naval medical officers in the front row, all the other uniformed men are O/R's. The naval officer in the middle is a Surgeon Commander (3 'rings' on his sleeve) while the other 2 are surgeon lieutenants (2 'rings'). The officer in the centre also has a medal ribbon or 2 on his jacket. He'll be Robert Hill, while the other 2 will be Harrison and Jackson, though there's no way of telling which is which without finding another portrait for comparison (I'd guess that Jackson is the younger of the 2; maybe the man on the right, by the look of it?).

The sister in the centre has some form of insignia on the left (her right) shoulder, though I don't recognize it. The entry on the navy list doesn't appear to make any differentiation between the 3 nursing sisters, but I'd say that the one in the centre is likely to be senior. Maybe someone can comment knowledgeably on the shoulder badge, otherwise maybe Jim could tell us whether one of them has higher 'precedence' in rank to the other 2.

None of the 4 male civilian staff are likely to be the dentist (he'd almost certainly be sitting in the front row, looking rather well-dressed, wearing a bowler hat - or possibly a topper if he was a bit old-fashioned - and with a watch chain and fob). The civvies are probably caretakers, skilled workmen or foremen, etc. Very possibly ex-marines (the man 4th from left in the 2nd row appears to have some medals on his chest, but they're obscured by the officers head). Looks like a teenage boy in the middle of the 3rd row. I'd imagine that the women are secretarial staff or other non-medical personnel (in charge of the laundry, or something like that).

[headgardener]

Just had a quick trawl on the 'net for references to the surgical staff; there's quite a lot on Hill; looks like he ended up as Surgeon Vice-Admiral, and I noticed a couple of references to him involving Jutland and Admiral Jellicoe.

Plenty of research potential on this, I'd imagine. Should be able to find some pics of these men, I reckon.

You're unlikely to be able to find anything on the O/R's without first finding their names. Maybe Jim could tell us whether some of the Warrant Officers are mentioned in the navy list?

By the way, it's best to also cross-check the names of the surgeons and nursing sisters against a copy of the navy list for the 1st 1/4 of 1914, just in case some of the staff changed during that 3 month period.

[Leofwine]

Thanks for all the information there guys, lots of food for thought. Now I have a good scan to blow up I'm wondering if I have the right Marine's wife. I wonder if Jane Barr (Robert Barr's wife) is pictured there.

[Jim Strawbridge]

maybe Jim could tell us whether one of them has higher 'precedence' in rank to the other 2.

Fleet Surgeon Robert Hill, C.V.O. 5 Feb 1912

Staff Surgeon William R. Harrison 14 May 1912

Surgeon Gordon A. Jackson, M.B., B.A. - Aug 1912

Nursing Sister Miss Eva M. K'Eogh 21 Sep 1912

Nursing Sister Miss Mary Bartlett 3 May 1912

Nursing Sister Miss Rosa Northcote 9 Nov 1911

Civilian Dental Surgeon Andrew Lawrey 11 Aug 1913

Not much help I am afraid.

[headgardener]

Not much help I am afraid.

Thanks Jim,

On the contrary, I think it would imply that Rosa Northcote was the nursing sister with the badge on her shoulder. She seems to be the most senior of 3 nursing sisters with the same rank.

[Sue Light]

The badge is just the service badge of Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service, and it's likely that all the women had such a badge, but perhaps didn't happen to have it visible on their tippet that day. The 'seniority' is also likely to be a flawed argument. Although they are all given as 'Nursing Sister,' there would also have been at least one 'Head Sister.' The seniority date will be that of the date of appointment to the current rank, so one of those women is likely to have a seniority date as 'Head Sister' but would have been in the service very much longer as 'Sister.' Miss K'Eogh had been in the service for a very long time - at least prior to 1897, as while a Sister with the QARNNS she was awarded the East and West Africa Medal with bar 'Benin 1897' for her services on the Hospital Ship Malacca during the Benin River Expedition. So despite the apparent seniority dates, I think Miss K'Eogh a better bet for the most senior nurse. I also think that the most senior sister is likely to be seated in the central position, so my guess is that Miss K'Eogh is in the middle. But only supposition of course.

Sue

[headgardener]

Oh well, so much for that theory.......

The lady in the centre has a medal ribbon up, so your suggestion sounds very plausible. Can't tell if the lady on the right side of the photo has a ribbon up, but assuming that K'Eogh was the only one with an award, then it has to be her.

[Jim Strawbridge]

I have a pretty good run of Navy Lists and happen to have March 1914. The names mentioned are pretty much the same :-

Fleet Surgeon Robert Hill, C.V.O. 5 Feb 1912

Staff Surgeon William R. Harrison 14 May 1912

Surgeon Gordon A. Jackson, M.B., B.A. - Aug 1912

(lent R.N. College, Greenwich)

Surgeon Henry H. Ormsby, M.B., B.A. (tempy) 14 Feb 1914

Nursing Sister Miss Eva M. K'Eogh 21 Sep 1912

Nursing Sister Miss Mary Bartlett 3 May 1912

Nursing Sister Miss Rosa Northcote 9 Nov 1911

Civilian Dental Surgeon Andrew Lawrey 11 Aug 1913

[Siobhan]

Hope this helps -

Eva Mary K'Eogh - born 8/11/1860; Nursing Sister in Naval Nursing Service from 1/4/1896 to 5/11/1914.

Mary Bartlett - born 18/12/1871; Nursing Sister in Naval Nursing Service from 12/9/1900 to 31/7/1915.

Rosa Northcote - born 17/4/1876; Nursing Sister in Naval Nursing Service from 23/12/1901 to 11/5/1914.

The eldest then would be Eva - probably the lady in the centre. She's also the most senior.

Siobhan

[Jim Strawbridge]

Siobhan, I am intrigued as to where you obtained the information re dates of birth and period of service. I am after something similar on a number of naval nursing people and I would like to know your source.

[Siobhan]

Hi Jim,

I have copies of the Naval nursing sisters' service records in ADM 104/43 and 104/161 - covering 1884 to post WW1. Also ADM 104/95 - annual reports 1890 - 1908.

There's not a huge amount of information in the records - dates of birth, joining, promotion and details of postings and so forth but little on place of origin, next of kin etc.

I'd be delighted to do look ups for you - fire away!

Siobhan

[Sue Light]

Hallo Siobhan

Is it just the 'regulars' you have details of, or do you have ADM104/162, 163, 164 and 165 as well?

Sue