Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Pte P J Foulser 53rd Battalion AIF


Ivor Lee

Recommended Posts

This is a follow up to my original request for help on 53rd Battalion AIF.

After the excellent help from the Pals I have looked at his records on the AWM site.

In his Red Cross file there are entries dated 19 July 1916 which states that he was killed by a machine gun bullet on this day. One reference from his Sgt says that he had stopped to bandage him and that he was dead.

In his service record there is an entry dated 28 July 1916 saying he was Missing in Action of 19 July 1916.

The next (typed) entry dated 4 August 1916 states he was Kia on 2 August 1916 and there is a handwritten addition to this saying he was previously reported missing.

As far as I can see there is no mention in his record of him being found after 19 July and returning to his unit.

So we seem to have a real mystery here.

Was he Kia on 19 July 1916 or on 2 August 1916?

If the latter what happened to him during these two weeks?

Where do I go from here?

HELP!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Ivor,

Well someone has obviously made a cock-up and his date of death is incorrectly recorded on the Roll of Honour and with CWGC. I have come across this sort of thing before. I don't know if this system was only used in AIF records. The date something was confirmed was entered and then the date if occurred. In this instance I would guess him being 'Killed in Action' on the 19th July was confirmed on the 2nd August.

Often after an action if a man could not be accounted for he would obviously simply be posted 'Missing'....but it seems this occurred only after it was confirmed he has not been taken off to a CCS of hosptial etc. If someone had actually seen him wounded during the action he would often be reported 'Wounded' even if his whereabouts were unknown. He would not be confirmed 'Killed in Action' or 'Died of Wounds' until there was solid evidence to confirm this or a Court of Inquiry had been held.

Your guy was obviously reported 'Missing' after the action on the 19th July which was confirmed and entered into his file on 28th July. After evidence of his death on the 19th July was finally received, probably from an eyewitness, this would have been entered into his file...in this case on the 2nd August. He was actually killed on the 19th July. The 53rd Battalion were in action at Fromelles on this date and lost 24 officers and 601 men. They were out of action by the 2nd August.

I have a relative, 5700 Pte Thomas Zeller, who was reported 'Wounded' at Broodseinde whilst serving with the 26th Battalion on the 7th October 1917 and remained that way for about six months before he was reported 'Wounded and Missing'. During this time his family was notified he has merely been wounded. His brothers serving with the 25th and 42nd Battalions tried to locate him but to no avail and made contact with the Red Cross to assist. His mother also kept up a steady stream of letters to AIF HQ. Sadly one brother, 2025 Cpl George Zeller, was killed on the 9th April before hearing that his brother was even missing. Thomas was finally confirmed 'Killed in Action' by a Court of Inquiry held by his battalion in June 1918 after some eyewitnesses to his death had surfaced. The case certainly shows the inadequcies of the casualty notification system in those days. I have written a bit of a story about the matter which outlines the system pretty well. I can e-mail to you if you wish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear all,

Interested to hear possible discrepancies in dates as I posted (Green Howards) 02/06/04 with similar problem dates, not as far apart though.

Would the Battalion/Company/Platoon/Section, not do a roll call at least once a day and note KIA, wounded or missing?

Blackblue:

If I may, I would like to read your observations on the casualty notification system.

In my case the 25th is mentioned in my great-uncles obituary in the local paper which appears to have been written and placed by my great-grandmother (my grandfather is mentioned as, brother” Will”, Thomas William) my great-grandmother was the only one to call him as such. This implies that the 25th was the date transmitted to NOK, (news paper mistakes aside) SDGW and CWGC showing the “reported” date of death as 28th?

This may back up your thoughts re the casualty notification system.

I will contact CWGC to try and investigate further.

Barry

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Barry,

What I have written doesn't really relate to the notification system itself but illustrates the system used in the case of my relatives. What I have noted about the system in the AIF mainly related to cases such as this and the fact that it appears that a significant time lapse may at times occur before the decision was made to post an individual as 'Missing in Action'. 'Wounded' of 'Killed in Action' etc. In certain instances this would obviously have been partly due to the number of casualties and the difficulty of finding word of an individuals fate.

My story relates more to Thomas, his three brothers and a cousin and their movements during the war. I used information from Red Cross files and Service Papers including letters. Its a pretty sad story when you read the letters their mother sent trying to find information....and it is easy to imagine her anguish to hear nothing for about eight months of her apparently 'Wounded' son. She even received an official letter saying that if no other notiification had been received ten he must have only received a minor wound. It later surfaces...some eight months later...that he had in fact been killed instantly when dismembered by a shell.

I would say that to confirm a date of death for your great uncle once and for all will be nigh impossible if you don't have his service papers. In the case of Ivor's relative and mine it only became possible because they were members of the AIF (who kept very detailed records...which survived). The error in Ivor's case only appears to have occurred because the file was misread in respect to the date of death.

Regards

Tim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tim,

Thanks you for the information.

I have contacted both CWGC and AWM regarding the discrepenacy and will post their reply.

I am sure you are correct and that the actual date of death was 19 July.

It certainly makes more sense as the Battalion was in action on this day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest stevenbec

I have an officer reported MIA on the 19th April 1917 at the battle of Gaza.

He was last seen fighting in the Tank redoubt and wounded.

After the battle his name was on the list of POW's taken by the Turks and inquiries by the Red Cross failed to find him in any prison.

The AIF could not declear him dead or missing as he was reported as a prisoner so this went on back and forth by the family trying to find out about him.

In 1919 ICC prisoners from this battle were released and interveiwed about those lost on that day and this officer.

They said he had been mortarly wounded during the battle and left for dead. None saw him killed only wounded.

The Turks may have taken him wounded but he died soon after, all on the 19th April 1917. The Turks must have reported him wounded but only to die soon after which was not reported.

The family was left with no word haw many poor families had this also.

S.B

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steve,

I actually also have a very similar case. He was apparently wounded and fell from his horse when scouting a Turkish post in the Jordan Valley in September 1918. A few days later the post was captured and the prisoners advised that he had been sent to Damascus as a POW. He was never heard from again and was finally declared Died of Wounds in July 1919.

Regards

Tim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...