.303 rounds

[wainfleet]

I got these .303 rounds, at least I presume that's what they are, at a car boot the other day. They look to have been reused, but at 40p each I didn't feel robbed. They seem to be Mark VI cases dated 1908, but are the bullet heads right for them? This is not my area so would be grateful for an ID from the ammunition specialists.

[Gunner Bailey]

You got a bargain. These bullets are for the 'Long Lee Enfield'. Well spotted.

John

[TonyE]

Living up to my reputation for pedantry, may I make a small point regarding the date of these rounds.

In 1908 these rounds would have been made for one of the early marks of the SMLE, before the introduction of the Mark VII ball round in 1910. Whilst the Territorial Force still had plenty of L-E Mark Is, the regular army had either newly made SMLE Mark I and I*, or Mark II conversions from older long rifles. Of course they could also be used in the long rifle as you say.

The rounds in question were made by Greenwood & Batley of Leeds and the two Broad Arrows indicate that they have been accepted by Government inspectors. This feature was introduced for ammunition made by contractors in 1907 and continued until the end of 1913.

...and yes, they are the correct 215 grn bullet. Heads, heads, who said heads?

Regards

TonyE

[wainfleet]

Excellent stuff, thank you both very much. Tony, "pedantry" of this sort is most welcome!

[TonyE]

I should have added that the Mark VI was introduced by List of Changes Para. 12411 of October 1904. Although succeeded by the Mark VII in 1910, production of the Mark VI continued at both Woolwich and contractors until at least 1916. Production in Australia did not change over to the Mark VII until February 1918 and India changed around the same time. Canada had produced both the Mark VI and Mark VII starting in 1915.

The last military contract for Mark VI that I know was by Kynoch in the 1950s for the Rhodesian Territorial Forces.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

I should have added that the Mark VI was introduced by List of Changes Para. 12411 of October 1904. Although succeeded by the Mark VII in 1910, production of the Mark VI continued at both Woolwich and contractors until at least 1916. Production in Australia did not change over to the Mark VII until February 1918 and India changed around the same time. Canada had produced both the Mark VI and Mark VII starting in 1915.

The last military contract for Mark VI that I know was by Kynoch in the 1950s for the Rhodesian Territorial Forces.

Regards

TonyE

Tony

Does that mean that RTF still had Enfield's sighted for MkVI rounds in the 1950s?

What on earth would those have been?

Chris

[4thGordons]

Living up to my reputation for pedantry, may I make a small point regarding the date of these rounds.

In 1908 these rounds would have been made for one of the early marks of the SMLE, before the introduction of the Mark VII ball round in 1910. Whilst the Territorial Force still had plenty of L-E Mark Is, the regular army had either newly made SMLE Mark I and I*, or Mark II conversions from older long rifles. Of course they could also be used in the long rifle as you say.

TonyE

Or.... the earliest made MkIII rifles.......

Chris

[TonyE]

Quite right, but nobody likes a smartypants, Christopher!

......Probably why I'm so popular.

Cheers

TonyE

[MikB]

Maybe I'm gonna be popular too...

I would just comment that there's no sign of pressure in the primers - they're still domed rather than partially-flattened around the firing-pin indentation as they would be if fired live.

Most likely the primers were fired in empty cases before reinserting the bullets, but there remains a far-outside possibility that these are misfired live rounds.

Regards,

MikB

[TonyE]

Tony

Does that mean that RTF still had Enfield's sighted for MkVI rounds in the 1950s?

What on earth would those have been?

Chris

I don't know, but the rounds were ordered by Southern Rhodesia, as it was then, and are headstamped "K57" at 12 o'c, "6" at 6 o'c and "T" and "F" at 9 and 3 o'c.

I have searched through the Kynoch order book for any later orders but did not find any. There were a couple of orders for 215 grn soft point rounds from the Crown Agents for the colonies, but these appear to have been for game control.

Regards

TonyE