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corisande

Capt Alfred Pelly White DSO

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corisande

I am having difficulty getting much about Capt White. Even his CWGC entry is wrong (Pelli rather than Pelly)

Here is where I am on Capt White

[edit]We have established "Alfred Pelly White " is the wrong man. I have another page now on "Alfred Philip White" [/edit]

I have his birth

1901 census

1911 census

his commission in 1917 plus two gazette entries 1919 and 1920

He was killed in this raid in Prof Carolan's house and is referred to by Jeune in his chapter in British Voices as a man with an "excellent war record"

My guess is that he was commissioned from the ranks, but cannot find any MIC for him. I doubt he got DSO for staying at home (OK it is possible), but with his background at that time he must have joined in the ranks and served in the trenches before getting his commission

The last Gazette entry I can find has him resigning his commission (as a Lt) but is referred to here as Capt when he died a few months later.

Anyone any thoughts on tracking him. LG database is always difficult - I only got the commission entry from Google and could not get it from LG query directly

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SteveE

Are you sure you have the right man?

WO338 Index to Officers' Service Long Number Papers has one entry for White, Alfred Pelly (179288) P/161256. No mention of a unit commissioned into, rank, a DSO or the fact that he was deceased. The P/161256 entry indicates his file is not at the National Archives as he had subsequent service which, in this case, is service in 1940.

I'm not sure whether a Yeomanry commission would show up in the WO338 index but the entries you've found in the Gazette upto 1920 appear to tie up with the 1940 entry.

R. Berks. R.

Lt. Alfred Pelly WHITE (161256) to. be

Lt. 16th Dec. 1940.

London Gazette entry is here.... http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/350...upplements/1421

Forgive me if I've missed something but how did you make the connection between Capt. A. P. White and Alfred Pelly White?, I can't see any obvious link in the articles you've linked to.

Regards

Steve

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SteveE
Forgive me if I've missed something but how did you make the connection between Capt. A. P. White and Alfred Pelly White?, I can't see any obvious link in the articles you've linked to.

I definitely think this is the wrong man and whoever submitted the data to CWGC has got it wrong......

I believe the man in question is Captain Alfred PHILIP White DSO,...

Regards

Steve

post-1432-1278594947.jpg

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Carmania

The correct name of the man your after is Alfred Phillip White of the East Surrey's and South Staffs. His MIC is on Ancestry.

Aled

Edit: Steve you beat me to it!

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corisande

Thank you gentlemen

I am convinced you are correct. If I cannot find the info, it always helps to get the other opinions here

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=75227741 shows clearly "Alfred Pelli White" died in this raid, but it was odd that I could not find him. My fault for accepting CWGC evidence, but all I could do in light of no other info. Those who have been involved in "Major Carew" saga know the difficulties in tracing soldiers who were in Intelligence in Ireland

I then got involved in this thread here where Chris Hartley looks after these things

 

I will point Chris to this thread and he can see about doing the bigger correction to Alfred Philip White

Any more that anyone can add on "Alfred Philip" again welcome

I think the mistake has come about as A capt White of E Surreys was shot on the raid, and at some point that has been ascribed to "Alfred Pelli" rather than "Alfred Philip". I certainly have more to go on now, and will see if we can dig up enough to substantiate that it was indeed "Alfred Philip" killed on the raid.

Quote
Forgive me if I've missed something but how did you make the connection between Capt. A. P. White and Alfred Pelly White?, I can't see any obvious link in the articles you've linked to.

and.. so Steve does not think me a complete idiot, because CWGC give "Alfred Pelli White" as the man who died on 12 Oct 1920. I try to double check all facts, and when I was getting nowhere, that is why I sought other opinions here.

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Carmania

The death of an Alfred Phillip White aged 40 was registered in North Dublin in the December Qtr of 1920. There is a likely candidate in the England 1891 Census, born in Ireland c1883 but the family looks rather confusing - he does'nt bear the some surname as his father who used to be a RC priest but converted to the CoE?

Aled

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SteveE

Alfred Phillip White's file at the National Archives is under reference WO339/9551.

Regards

Steve

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chrisharley9

Im on the job now; will get this sorted out one way or another

Chris

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chrisharley9

From the Times of 28th Oct 1920

post-4020-1278604847.png

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SteveE

Alfred (Philip) White's D.S.O. was originally promulgated as "Arthur White" in London Gazette #31219, 8th March 1919. Link is here.... http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/312...upplements/3226

Capt. (A./Lt.-Col.) Arthur White, 4th Bn., E. Surr. R., attd. 1/5th Bn., S. Staffs. R., T.F.

Award was corrected in London Gazette #31975, 12th July 1920. Link is here.... http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/319...upplements/7429

Awarded the Distinguished Service Order.

London Gazette dated 8th March, 1919.

For Capt. (A./Lt.-Col.) Arthur White, 4th Bn., E. Surr. R., attd. 1/5th Bn., S. Staffs. R., T.F.,

Read Capt. (A./Lt.-Col.) Alfred White, 4th Bn., E. Surr. R., attd. 1/5th Bn., S. Staffs. R., T.F.

Regards

Steve

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corisande

Aled

we may be closing in on this

1911 English census gives a man born Dublin "Alfred Phillip White"

1911Census.jpg

Can anyone transcribe where he was born - top line is obviously "Dublin, Ireland...Irish" but the second line?

1911Census-born.jpg

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SteveE
Can anyone transcribe where he was born - top line is obviously "Dublin, Ireland...Irish" but the second line?

It's "Resident in this Country" in answer to the Note "In the cases of persons born elsewhere etc..." in the Birthplace column of the form.

Steve

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SteveE

His DSO citation, London Gazette #31583, 4th October 1919. Link is here.... http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/315...pplements/12229

Capt. (A./Lt.-Col.) Arthur White, 4th Bn., E. Surr. R., attd. 4/5th Bn., S. Staffs. R., T.F.

On the 28th September, 1918, his battalion on the day previous to a general attack on the St. Quentin Canal, was heavily attacked by the enemy in our outpost line near Bellenglise. During the succeeding night he reorganised his battalion and completed with three companies preparations for an attack which was organised for four companies. He led his battalion to the attack, and its success was largely due to his forethought in preparation and his coolness in action.

Regards

Steve

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corisande
It's "Resident in this Country" in answer to the Note "In the cases of persons born elsewhere etc..." in the Birthplace column of the form.

Thanks Steve - I would never have got that.

As an Irishman, I like that one, Ireland was part of the same country, United Kingdom, in 1911 :)

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SteveE

Ah but it was only a census of England and Wales, Ireland had it's own ;):whistle: .

Steve

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corisande

OK I am updating my page on Alfred Philip White was we progress & it has the 1891 and 1911 census. plus the LG entries

Carmania is one step ahead on White's family. I would have assumed that his mother re-married the priest? But have nothing to substantiate that

Also I cannot find his birth in Dublin in either Irish state or Dublin church records. But if there was something dodgy, I may be looking at the wrong surname with White!

I have got the marriage of White to Purcell

1890 Jul/Sep Philip Paul Purcell marries Madeline/Madelina Johanna A T Waldmann-White registered Conway Vol 11b, p628

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corisande

You could have had his DSO for $20.

Sold Date: 11/23/2007

Channel: Online Auction

Source: eBay

This auction is for an original Distinguished Service Order D.S.O cased ,period named etc details(as per the photos) which reads E.Surrey.Regt Lt.Col A.P.White 29 Sep 1918 Att 1/5 .S.Staff.Regt. I am not an expert on medals but believe this was done privately by some officers.I did a quick seach of the London Gazette and on page 6682 dated 17th June 1920 found Capt.A.White,DSO,4th E.Surr.R.,Spec Res.2nd June 1920 and have not researched him any further .It would be nice to think someone out there has the rest of his group. Airfrieght P&P worldwide $20.00 insurance extra to be arranged if needed,good luck with bidding.

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corisande

Quite a jolt when one looks at that LG reference there are 4 "Special Appointments" and the ones below are three of the four

SPECIAL APPOINTMENTS.

Cl. HH.—Temp. Lt. G. Bennett, Gen. List. 2nd June 1920.

Cl II - Capt. A. White, D.S.O., 4th E. Surr. R., Spec. Res. 2nd June 1920.

Cl II Temp-. Lt. R. D. Jeune, Gen. List. 2nd June 1920

Bennett was one of the Intelligence men murdered on Bloody Sunday

White is this man who lost his life in the Carolan Raid

Jeune was also on the Carolan Raid and survived Bloody Sunday because he was out on a job that night, although he was on the IRA list that day

White, in spite of his army seniority had a fairly low "class II" grade in Ireland

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Murrough

I think the $20 refers to the freight costs.

Regards,

Murrough.

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mhifle

Hi,

From the Army Lists

Regards Mark

8 Aug 1914

4 East Surrey

Captain

(passed school of instruction for Captain) (previous War Services) White,A.(Hon Lt in Army 11 May02) (Qualified at School of Musketry),

30Nov09

31 Dec 1914

4 East Surrey

Captain

Attached to 1st Battalion (passed school of instruction for Captain) (previous War Services) White,A.(Hon Lt in Army 11 May02) (Qualified at School of Musketry), 30Nov09

31 Oct 1916

4 East Surrey

Captain

Attached to 1st Battalion (passed school of instruction for Captain) (previous War Services) White,A.(Hon Lt in Army 11 May02), (Qualified at School of Musketry), (empld 19 Bn Manchester Reg)

30Nov09

28 Nov 1917

5th South Staffordshire

Major

(passed school of instruction for Captain) (previous War Services) White,A.(Hon Lt in Army 11 May02)

(Qualified at School of Musketry), Capt 4Bn, East. Surrey Regiment.(acting rank)7aug17

.

26 Nov 1917 Major White takes temporary command while Lt Col Lamond on leave

28 Nov 1918

5th South Staffordshire

Major

(passed school of instruction for Captain) (previous War Services) White,A.(Hon Lt in Army 11 May02)

(Qualified at School of Musketry), Capt 4Bn, East. Surrey Regiment. (acting rank)6sept18

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corisande

Thanks for the Army List records Mark

Another odd thing I found on the chap was

1909 Mar 26 Bankrupts receiving orders . GazetteAlfred White, 4th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment, the Barracks, Kingston, Surrey, officer in H.M. Army.

I always thought that bankruptcy was the end of the road for an officer, but he was promoted in Nov that year. Though in 1911 census he has occupation "none" in the record

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mhifle

Hi,

Here are some more items from the London Times

Regards Mark

The 4th Battalion East Surrey Regiment was Embodied on 4 Dec 1899 and reported to its HQ at Kingstown

Then 6 March 1900 it is sent to a new post at Enniskillen under Lt Col Haines with details from the 2nd Battalion a total of 935 men.

It is then at Finner Infantry camp on the Atlantic coast being replaced at Enniskillen and Derry by the 5th Royal Irish Rifles.

The Battalion seems to have been split since the 4th Battalion East Surrey Regiment also arrives at Cape Town on the 'Oriental' along with other drafts 21 March 1900.

1 Jan 1902 Major E F Sulivan Reserve of Officers, formerly of the Hampshire Regiment appointed to command the 4th (Militia) East Surrey Regiment. Who is still in command when it returns to the UK in Sept 1902.

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corisande

Thanks Mark

Yes Lt Col Sulivan is listed as CO when they leave for London 1902 Sep 12th,, and White listed among the offices

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mhifle

Hi,

There was another Lieutenant A White in the 4th East Surrey Regiment.

This may have been the Bankrupt.

Joined from 3rd Battalion the Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Reg) 12 Aug 1904.

The Times 13 Aug 1904

Regards Mark

post-14045-039428900 1279038619.jpg

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corisande

Mark

Weird that one. I took a look at "my man". The balance is that it was probably him, in as much as he used the name "Alfred White" without the Philip in his army career.

However the army themselves appear to have been confused, if you look at the LG entries, you will see that they amend entries from "Arthur" to "Alfred"

On the other hand if he had been bankrupt, then that would I assume have been the end of his army career.

So, I am not sure. And have amended my notes on him to reflect that uncertainty

.

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