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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Three Mortlock brothers killed in action


RaySearching

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Hi Forum Pals apologies for the earlier post
Here is the post , I was going to post earlier and messed it up

I came across this Headstone in Eston Cemetery Middlesbrough ,Whilst out photographing war graves
This Headstone has recently had Three Brothers, Death plaques Stolen From it Prised of with a screwdriver The marks were clearly visable

With Death Plaques selling for £50.00 + on Ebay its an easy way for lowlife's to make a bit of easy money
please make a note of the soldiers names and if anybody comes across the Plaques for sale please inform me
I intend to report the alleged theft to the police

The soldiers are no relation to me I just hate to see graves desecrated in this way

I would like to see the perpetrators shot at dawn if caught IS THIS TO HARSH


4767490973_534ca99b48_b.jpg


10972 Thomas James Mortlock 12th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers
5249 Henry James Mortlock A Coy 12th Bn Nothumerland Fusilers
G/8439 Frederick Mortlock 1st Bn the Queens (Royal Surrey Regiment)

Sons of Thomas and Mary Ann Mortlock of 75 Surrey St South Bank Yorks

Kind Regards Ray

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Sadly, I gather that this was not an unusual occurrence. The CWGC made reference to the theft of death plaques from non-CWGC grave markers in their book "Courage Remembered".

Doesn't make it any less dispiriting to see....

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That makes my blood boil!

Has anyone else noticed the number of information plaques 'missing' from CWGC cemeteries - Three I was visiting over the weekend had shown recent signs of them being stolen (not removed for maintenance)

What's the answer to this? - Remove them before they are stolen?

Sadly, there will always be elements of society with differing views & morals.

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Hi Forum pals

Here Is a photo of another Desecrated Headstone From the same Cemetery (ESTON )

with the death plaque removed, Most likely stolen

4770127781_199c3461e1_b.jpg

regards Ray

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That is appalling. Do people really sell this stuff on ebay?

Very, very sad.

What do you mean? No one has said these stolen plaques are being sold or have been sold on ebay.

As regards plaques in general yes there are very many of us that buy and sell plaques on ebay, whats the problem with that?

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HI auchonvillerssomme

I personally have no problem with Collectors of military artifacts who obtain there goods legitmately

But ,there will always be those elements in society who have no scrupples

There must be hundereds of memorials up and down the country which have had there death plaques removed

without the consent of the family's who own the memorials (Stolen)

and sold on to unsuspecting genuine collectors who are unaware of the original source of the plaques

what is needed is an online database of stolen memorial artifacts there be one maybe one already in existence of which i am unaware of

where collectors could check out artifacts ie plaques to see if they are stolen

regards Ray

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Ray that that hasn't answered my question to jscott. Have either of you any evidence that these or other stolen memorial plaques have been sold on ebay?

Ebay is only one outlet for the sale of any goods. If indeed they have been stolen for sale, it may well be a collector who has no scruples. Would an online database prevent the sale at a boot fair? No not unless you carried around a vast portfolio of information or a netbook permanently connected (I do actually do this when attending fairs but not specifically to check for stolen goods) And this isn't a new problem I can remember a plaque and other items being taken from a now defunct church in Pitsea in the mid 70's.

How recently were the plaques taken from the grave you photographed? When were they last seen? How do you know they have been stolen and not removed for safekeeping? What did the police say?

The Medal News often prints lists of stolen items as does the British Medal Forum. I do as you may have guessed have an issue with the demonisation of Ebay.

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Ray that that hasn't answered my question to jscott. Have either of you any evidence that these or other stolen memorial plaques have been sold on ebay?

Ebay is only one outlet for the sale of any goods. If indeed they have been stolen for sale, it may well be a collector who has no scruples. Would an online database prevent the sale at a boot fair? No not unless you carried around a vast portfolio of information or a netbook permanently connected (I do actually do this when attending fairs but not specifically to check for stolen goods) And this isn't a new problem I can remember a plaque and other items being taken from a now defunct church in Pitsea in the mid 70's.

How recently were the plaques taken from the grave you photographed? When were they last seen? How do you know they have been stolen and not removed for safekeeping? What did the police say?

The Medal News often prints lists of stolen items as does the British Medal Forum. I do as you may have guessed have an issue with the demonisation of Ebay.

I think you will find it was a suggestion by Ray that becuase they are regularly seen on Ebay selling for 50 quid that it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that certain people can see a way of making a quick buck.

In regards to a central database - unfortunately that would be impossible to maintain.

Cheers

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Ray that that hasn't answered my question to jscott. Have either of you any evidence that these or other stolen memorial plaques have been sold on ebay?

Ebay is only one outlet for the sale of any goods. If indeed they have been stolen for sale, it may well be a collector who has no scruples. Would an online database prevent the sale at a boot fair? No not unless you carried around a vast portfolio of information or a netbook permanently connected (I do actually do this when attending fairs but not specifically to check for stolen goods) And this isn't a new problem I can remember a plaque and other items being taken from a now defunct church in Pitsea in the mid 70's.

How recently were the plaques taken from the grave you photographed? When were they last seen? How do you know they have been stolen and not removed for safekeeping? What did the police say?

The Medal News often prints lists of stolen items as does the British Medal Forum. I do as you may have guessed have an issue with the demonisation of Ebay.

Hi Auchonvillersomme

As Nezf has pointed out nobody has suggested that these or any other stolen plaques have been sold on Ebay (none that I know about!)

a quick reply to two points you have made

your Quote (1) (how do you know they have been stolen and not removed for safekeeping)

Have a look at the photograph, Would any family member of the deceased soldier's attack the Headstone with a Screwdriver or similar instrument causing damage to the headstone prise out the plaques to remove them for SAFEKEEPING

why would they want to do that ? to prevent them from being STOLEN!

your quote (2) (I do as you may have guessed have an issue with the demonisation of Ebay)

FACT

Ebay is often and well documented as a outlet for rouges to dispose of stolen goods

There are numerous documented prosecutions every year of individuals taken to Court for selling stolen goods on Ebay

therfore Ebay is , I may add a unwittingly being used by rouges to fence stolen goods

auchonvillerssomme From Your reply I presume you a dealer in war memorabilia if you feel you are being tarred with the same brush

as the the lowlife's who desecrated this headstone I apologise it was not my intention to do so

regards ray

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Not necessarily eBay; the local scrap metal dealer, local coins shop, car boot, etc.

I'm not sure I'd sell stolen goods on eBay - too easy for them to find me when the police investigate.

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Not necessarily eBay; the local scrap metal dealer, local coins shop, car boot, etc.

I suspect that this is the sad reality. Scrap prices are so high these days. That's almost certainly what's happened to the CWGC markers. Probably the memorial plaques as well.

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I suspect that this is the sad reality. Scrap prices are so high these days. That's almost certainly what's happened to the CWGC markers. Probably the memorial plaques as well.

I don,t think they would take a memorial plaque to the " local "scrap dealer as they would only realise about £1.50 each.

Davie

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  • 4 months later...

One thing's for sure, the Mortlock ones and the one for George Undy Keen are all unique names, so if you're offered one there ought to be a few questions answered first or you might find yourself in receipt of stolen goods.

Of course this may not be the case, but it's certainly suspicious enough to question the legality of the sale. I have no problem with legitimate sales but theft from a gravestone and subsequent sale is at the very least morally reprehensible and at the other end it's a rotten crime.

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I find it odd that the family placed the plaques on the gravestones originally. They were clearly meant to be personal house mementoes in the first place. I wonder what prompted the next of kin to mount them in the graves-stones. The town memorial and the grave's inscription would have commemorated the men. How common was this inclusion?

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I find it odd that the family placed the plaques on the gravestones originally. They were clearly meant to be personal house mementoes in the first place.

That's your view of it of course, but over the years I have seen literally hundreds of memorial plaques on family graves in the UK. When I first visited the Somme and spoke to the older CWGC who worked for the commission pre-WW2 they remembered seeing plaques left on the graves across the battlefields; now only one survives left where it was by the family.

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Earlier in the year whilst visiting Estaires CCE I came across a plaque that had been placed against the the appropriate grave. Needless to say re-visiting later in the year, it had gone,and sadly I was not surprised,

Bob

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That's your view of it of course, but over the years I have seen literally hundreds of memorial plaques on family graves in the UK. When I first visited the Somme and spoke to the older CWGC who worked for the commission pre-WW2 they remembered seeing plaques left on the graves across the battlefields; now only one survives left where it was by the family.

Hi Paul. This is not at all surprising. I would appreciate the chance to ask you about this for my research. Would you consider contacting me off-list? My e-mail is jrtrigg@liv.ac.uk. Many thanks.

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  • 9 months later...

Just an update the medals of Henry James Mortlock 12th N Fs sold yesterday at a very respected medal auction.Of course there was no plaque as this was stolen from the family grave by low life's!

Is there any more information on the Mortlock brothers?

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The information regarding Henry,s Place of Birth (Middlesbrough) on the Medal Catalog is incorrect

This information was possibly obtained from SDGW which is also incorrect

Thomas and Henry Mortlock were both born in Fulham Middlesex

Frederick was born in Bourne Valley Dorset

Henry and Thomas were employed in the Local Docks prior to the war

Thomas an Apprentice Plater and Henry a Dock Labourer

regards Ray

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This Headstone has recently had Three Brothers, Death plaques Stolen From it Prised of with a screwdriver ... would like to see the perpetrators shot at dawn if caught IS THIS TO HARSH

Ray, the one on the left was obviously take off some time ago - the lichen beneath the place where it was is still green and there are no screwdrivermarks. It looks like the others had been cleaned (fairly) recently to judge from the wattery marks in the lichen where they had been located. Might be worthwhile establishing when all three were last seen in their proper place.

Shot at dawn? Too good for the b*gg**s who did it...

Trajan

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Ray

Thanks for the information I purchased the medals spur of moment only as they are early Somme and unusually had not done any research beforehand.

Where did you get the information from if you don't mind me asking?

Best Regards Julian

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Ray

Thanks for the information I purchased the medals spur of moment only as they are early Somme and unusually had not done any research beforehand.

Where did you get the information from if you don't mind me asking?

Best Regards Julian

the information came from the 1901 and 1911 census returns

pm me with your e mail address and I will let you have a copy of the original 1911 census return as a jpeg if you cannot access it

now you only have two sets of medals to find to complete the set for the three Mortlock brothers

regards ray

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  • 2 years later...

Reply 3 years later...

Maybe the plaques were stolen, maybe not...

The overiding point is... does the local area, Eston, recognise the sacrifice the Mortlock family suffered?? Not a hope.

Eston cemetery has more than a few "stones" marking the passing of people during WW1 and WW2... but the local council, local history grps, etc seem to be uninterested in such things.

raysearcher made a few interesting points... but a guy who spells his home area of Teesside as teeside on his profile kinda make me think if his data is correct.

Mortlock is not a common name as such but neither is it unique.. The 3 brothers were from the Tees area. South Bank...

Don't smudge history for the sake of controversy.

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