WW1 Caltrop?

[hadfield]

Hi all,

With reference to the picture below, can anyone tell me if this a WW1 Caltrop or anything else about it? For your information the span of it is 15 1/4in (approx 375mm) and I believe it came from the Chemin des Dammes.

Regs

Brimstone

[Gunner Bailey]

I've not seen one that large before. Normally they are 3 - 5 inches at most, and only have 4 spikes. I can only assume they were for anti personnel use, perhaps covered with leaves or undergroath. Amazing.

John

[centurion]

As Gunner B says, somewhat large. The caltop was originally intended to impede cavalry and the idea is very old being used in ancient times (Roman etc). It was developed separately in Japan and Korea (and then pinched by the Chinese) as an anti personnel weapon. The Indians had some intended to incommode elephants but nowhere near as large as that. They have to be big enough to hurt but small enough to be easily stepped on. This one looks as if it were designed by B S Johnson It also looks in remarkable good nick for a WW1 relic

[hadfield]

Hi,

Thank you both for that interest and info! I was pondering why it is so large, because like yourselves I am familiar with the smaller British Caltrop and wondered if this larger version would have been deployed in areas of soft ground. The smaller version would have been great on hard surfaces but used on softer ground would have been trod in in underfoot. Unlike this one, which because of its size, would have remained effective. A good point about the condition of this item, but some of the spikes are showing their age and it has been painted over. The picture does make it look better than it actually is.

Regs

Brimstone

[centurion]

I suspect that in soft ground barbed wire would do the job instead

[centurion]

Worth noting that someone (a dealer) is selling a similar sized caltrop on e Bay (except his one has been well and truly flattened at some stage). It is described as AWI. He is asking $499. Of it he says (the spelling is all his)

This is an early attempt to stop cavalry and massed infantry attacks during the early days of American History.

Each spike is 11.5 inches long. The 12 spikes are held in place by several hand cast rivets.

This clartrop was found many years ago in the vicinity of an early Eastern US American fort.

Hmmm

[PhilB]

I thought the principle of the caltrap is that one spike always stands vertical. It looks from the photo that that isn`t the case here?

[hadfield]

Hi all,

I would say in answer to the barbed wire theory, that the deployment of barbed wire would be slower, more labour intensive and more expensive etc than using Caltrops. Also I think that if you wanted to lay a trap for your enemy, the Caltrop would be far less visible than barbed wire.

I would hazard a guess, ref the point about one spike always being vertical that there is no definitive Caltrop design and even if the vertical spike is a few degrees out, then it will still do its job. Also, unless the Caltrop was deployed on perfectly horizontal plane, which is highly unlikely in battle then the vertical spike probably would not have been vertical at all! Incidently, who is BS Johnson?

Regs

Brimstone.

[keithfazzani]

I am no expert but precisely what use would a caltrop of this size be. Far too large for a horse or a man to stand on, I suppose if it was at the bottom of a ditch or a sunken road someone might jump on it. Other than that I really cant see it being of much use. Perhaps someone out there has a better idea?

[centurion]

Hi all,

I would say in answer to the barbed wire theory, that the deployment of barbed wire would be slower, more labour intensive and more expensive etc than using Caltrops. Also I think that if you wanted to lay a trap for your enemy, the Caltrop would be far less visible than barbed wire.

I would hazard a guess, ref the point about one spike always being vertical that there is no definitive Caltrop design and even if the vertical spike is a few degrees out, then it will still do its job. Also, unless the Caltrop was deployed on perfectly horizontal plane, which is highly unlikely in battle then the vertical spike probably would not have been vertical at all! Incidently, who is BS Johnson?

Regs

Brimstone.

ALL the original four spike caltrops were designed to have one spike vertical on a flat surface - don't forget the original design was anti cavalry - the idea was to spike the horses foot. one piece Roman caltrops had one spike vertical, so did Byzantine ones, Norman ones etc etc. In the East Japanese ninjas used caltrops with one spike vertical - yes there is a definitive design.

To block an area you need to lay a lot of caltrops - even with normal sized ones that's a usually quite a load and requiring quite a few men to spread them - takes time. Coils of wire can be laid quite quickly if not under fire and can be concealed , by laying in dead ground for example - a common German practice.

I was having a mild joke with BS Johnson who is Bloody Stupid Johnson, a fictional architect and inventor (a Terry Pratchet conceit) - a sort of antidote to Capability Brown who had serious problems with scale (amongst other things). Hence your calthrop would be the sort of thing he'd produce when trying to produce a mouse deterrent.

[robins2]

I am no expert but precisely what use would a caltrop of this size be. Far too large for a horse or a man to stand on, I suppose if it was at the bottom of a ditch or a sunken road someone might jump on it. Other than that I really cant see it being of much use. Perhaps someone out there has a better idea?

could it be from a later period (WW11) anti vehicle??

[Cnock]

Hi,

in the middle a genuine British caltrop

the last years one sees to much caltrops of this size just like the 'Flechettes' dropped from the planes.

Cnock

[Cnock]

''the last years one sees to much caltrops of this size ''(previous post)

p.s; I meant the large caltrops from post 1.

Cnock

[centurion]

Thanks Cnock - in design and size its pretty much unchanged from a Roman Caltrop an example of a weapon remaining unchanged down the millennia.

[truthergw]

The normal caltrop as shown by Cnock and as Centurion says, more or less unchanged in size and manufacture for centuries, is an anti-horse device although it would injure any man unfortunate enough to step on it in the dark. One of its pluses is ease of manufacture and deployment. Just throw it down. Hard to see how one the size of a football would work unless it was, as Keith says, in a hole. Here however it is definitely over-engineered. The Vietnamese used pungi sticks in pits but there is no point in going to all the trouble of making that spike ball to put it in a hole. One dirty bamboo stick did the job. The normal caltrop would have been effective against cars but not heavy lorries which tended to have solid tyres at the time and I think the one shown would be more likely to be knocked aside than run over. All in all, I think it is a product of the imagination rather than an arms factory but I have seen stranger things on the forum so I am leaving a tiny bolt hole in case somebody comes up with a picture of it being used in Africa as an elephant trap.

[Cnock]

Hi,

the last victim of the caltrop I showed was the tire of an agriculture tractor at Ploegsteert.

Cnock

[centurion]

Here however it is definitely over-engineered. The Vietnamese used pungi sticks in pits but there is no point in going to all the trouble of making that spike ball to put it in a hole. One dirty bamboo stick did the job.

And indeed there are photos of similar pits on the Eastern front complete with spike (although probably not bamboo), The Romans complained about some of their enemies using the same sort of device. It doesn't matter if you are Decurion Septimus Marco, Feldwebel Hans Schmidt, or Sergeant Hamilton Philby - a sharp dirty stake is equally effective.

[Khaki]

Just a guess, but the size of the caltrop and the number and angle of spike's suggest to me that it may have been employed as part of a fixed defence wall (on the top)to prevent intruders/ escapers. I think it may predate ww1 and may have seen prison use, I have seen similar spikes on 19th century prison windows etc.

khaki

[centurion]

Just a guess, but the size of the caltrop and the number and angle of spike's suggest to me that it may have been employed as part of a fixed defence wall (on the top)to prevent intruders/ escapers. I think it may predate ww1 and may have seen prison use, I have seen similar spikes on 19th century prison windows etc.

khaki

You've sparked a memory I've seen things like this used to stop people climbing round the end of a wall that ran at 90 degrees to a canal. There's a mobile phone mast not too far away from where I live that has similar things to stop people climbing up the legs.

[SiegeGunner]

Anti-climbing measures like that tend to be a crown of spikes (on pylon legs) or an arc of spikes (on the end of a wall or fence) rather than the sort of thing we have here. I don't know what this object really is, but it looks as if it would be useful to a small body of infantry, operating in open country (before WW1), to place in front of their formation and perhaps particularly on their flanks, as a deterrent to cavalry. And when they move on, they simply pick them up and take them with them, for use at their next location, and also to prevent them being a hazard to their own mounted troops, as randomly scattered small ones would be.

[centurion]

Anti-climbing measures like that tend to be a crown of spikes (on pylon legs) or an arc of spikes (on the end of a wall or fence) rather than the sort of thing we have here. I don't know what this object really is, but it looks as if it would be useful to a small body of infantry, operating in open country (before WW1), to place in front of their formation and perhaps particularly on their flanks, as a deterrent to cavalry. And when they move on, they simply pick them up and take them with them, for use at their next location, and also to prevent them being a hazard to their own mounted troops, as randomly scattered small ones would be.

I've seen things like the thing we have here used for anti climbing. Can't see something that big being much use against cavalry. To have enough to block very much would require using up a lot of transport. There was a device used for blocking passages or narrow streets which was a block with holes allowing sergeants half pikes to be pushed through to create a very large version of this.

[SiegeGunner]

I've also seen similar things used for anti-climbing, but they have a hub for mounting on a rod or axle so that they can rotate.

[PhilB]

From Wiki:-

A caltrop (also known as caltrap, galtrop, cheval trap, galthrap, galtrap, calthrop, crow's foot)

Is there an official spelling?

[hadfield]

Hi all,

Again thanks for the thoughts and interest on this, but I don't seem to be any closer to a definitive answer regarding the said item. I don't believe it is a 'fantasy' item, the method of construction, design, material etc would suggest otherwise. Therefore it was made for, I believe, some kind of non-permament, defensive role, those spikes do mean business! But what role, what war? I do enjoy the debate that can ensue with devices etc. such as this one, but not the frustration when a definitve answer proves illusive!

Thanks again,

Brimstone.

[centurion]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jul 5 2010, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From Wiki:-

A caltrop (also known as caltrap, galtrop, cheval trap, galthrap, galtrap, calthrop, crow's foot)

Is there an official spelling?

I think it depends on what century you're living in