T4 212798 Charles David McCarthy ASC (Mule) Driver

[gatenby]

I am just starting to research my grandad, Charles David McCarthy, who was in the ASC (enlisted 19.1.14) and went to France on 5/10/14 according to his medal card. He was a mule driver, (T4). I know he was disharged in 1918 and mum said he died when she was young from the injuries of gas poisoning. His discharge papers say he served 4 years 237 days, including one year 212 days in Salonica. I am now coming to the conclusion that he got gassed, before going to Salonica for more service. Was this common? Thanks in anticipation of replies. Any help would be gratefully received, I am just starting (or as my name says a late starter) considering my mum is now 80 and struggling to remember details! Thanks,

Updated - did not go to France 5/10/14 - wrong soldier - another with the same name.

[Robert Dunlop]

One year 212 days (more than a year and a half) in Salonica suggests that your grandad may have left France before mustard gas was introduced there (mid 1917). Do you know if he returned to France and Flanders after his stint in Salonica? I don't know if mustard gas was used in Salonica.

Robert

[gatenby]

Thanks for your quick reply. I am not aware that he went back to Flanders. T4 suggests he went to France with the Fifth Division in the fifth divisional train, as I am assuming TA meant he was in the 4 company of the ASC but I am new at this so I could be wrong. His E.511 that we have says service abroad in Salonica so we are assuming that was where he was discharged from, but again we could be wrong. Thanks

[truthergw]

He would not have been sent to Salonika because he had been gassed. He would have gone when his unit was deployed there. I doubt if he had been badly gassed, in that case he would have been transferred to another unit with lower medical requirements if he was not discharged as unfit.

[kenf48]

I think you're right to assume he went to France with the 5th Division. He appears to have been a pre war regular given his enlistment date and so it fits that he went to France with the BEF again as you say the 5th Division was at the second battle of Ypres where the Germans used gas for the first time (unfortunately by specifying 'mustard gas' you may have caused some confusion unfortunately even the smallest detail may be significant when trying to piece together the jigsaw on the limited information available ).

Interestingly the medal card on the other site for Driver Charles David McCarthy T4/212798 does not show his entitlement to the 1914 Star but gives his Silver War Badge entitlement ASC/2704 and his cause of discharge was 'no longer fit for military service' KR 392 (xvi). There is another mic for Cpl C.D. Mcarthy 3621 ASC which does mention the 14 Star and entry 5 October 1914. This lists this soldier as 7 & 56 sadly we need an ASC expert!

I agree with you (fwiw!) it is entirely possible he was gassed at 2nd Ypres and invalided back to the UK. Naturally he would have been replaced and when recovered he would have returned to the Depot to await another posting, if a draft was going to Salonika there is no reason why he should not have gone with them. Maybe someone in the orderly room thought they were doing him a favour sending him to the sunshine (as in if 'you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined') As above it wasn't common practice to send gassed soldiers to other theatres, simply the rotation of wounded and sick soldiers who had recovered returning to the fray. That is why many WW1 soldiers have two or three regimental numbers having been posted to different regiments. As most Divisions arrived in Salonika in Oct- Nov 1915 he would have been sent home late in 1917 which although I haven't done the maths is consistent with being discharged in 1918 so I doubt he ever went back into action again.

In fact, winters in Salonica were very harsh and in summer the soldiers were plagued by malaria and other sickness, there was a very high sickness rate during the campaign. It was far from a convalescent posting. If his respiratory system was already damaged it would have been exacerbated by any other illness he contracted and in the absence of antibiotics, for example pneumonia may have set in.

Ken

[gatenby]

This is so intersting. The word "Mustard" gas apparently came from my Grandma, that is what she described it as. Apparently he was in the ASC "having previously served whilst embodied in the Royal Army Medical Corps." He was enlisted to serve in the Territorial Army of the county of lancashire. My mother talks about his respiratory condition being terrible all the time she remembered it (as a girl) and he was never fit to work after the war and she had to run across the town to a friends house (who had a fridge) in the night , to fetch ice when he frequently coughed up blood. She was only about 14 at the time. Apparently he had to go before the medical board several times after the war as they kept trying to reassess his pension. he died about three years later.

I asked her about a SWB and she knows nothing about it. He never had one as far as she is aware. She says he had no horsemanship experience as far as she was aware, he was a solicitors clerk, so she is surprised he was a mule driver when he had been in the RAMC when he was in the TA.

Thanks again for all this information. Much appreciated.

[kenf48]

There is no guarantee they are the same man. The SWB is my interpretation.

However the six digit number does suggest renumbering of a member of the Territorial Force see

http://www.1914-1918.net/renumbering.htm

As for 'mustard gas' in lay terms I guess that would be generic like 'hoover 'for vacumn cleaner etc. The gas released on 22 April 1915 by the Germans at Ypres was chlorine, as noted mustard gas came later, another gas used was phosgene. Chlorine was the least effective once the initial surprise passed, mustard on the other hand blistered the skin, hence the classic images of gassed soldiers.

You may get more advice about the ASC/RAMC if you include it in the title or start another thread and one of the 'specialists' may help you more. It is possible he was a member of a Field Ambulance attached to a Territorial Bn.

Ken

[truthergw]

This is so imtersting. The word "Mustard" gas apparently came from my Grandma, that is what she described it as. Apparently he was in the ASC "having previously served whilst embodied in the Royal Army Medical Corps." He was enlisted to serve in the Territorial Army of the county of lancashire. My mother talks about his respiratory condition being terrible all the time she remembered it (as a girl) and he was never fit to work after the war and she had to run across the town to a friends house (who had a fridge) in the night , to fetch ice when he frequently coughed up blood. She was only about 14 at the time. Apparently he had to go before the medical board several times after the war as they kept trying to reassess his pension. he died about three years later.

I asked her about a SWB and she knows nothing about it. He never had one as far as she is aware. She says he had no horsemanship experience as far as she was aware, he was a solicitors clerk, so she is surprised he was a mule driver when he had been in the RAMC when he was in the TA.

Thanks again for all this information. Much appreciated.

I think that a bad gassing like that would lead to being invalided out. Is there a chance that he was in Salonika, returned to Ypres, was gassed and then came home?

[gatenby]

I suppose that is a possibility. Salonika os mentioned on his E.511 discharge certificate so I was assuming he did that last in his service in 1918.

I had assumed (wrongly) that the two Charles David McCarthy medal cards were the same, just one was the front and one was the back. I had not thought there might have been two of them! Thanks for pointing that out! Grandad is T4 212798 because that is what is on his Victory medal and British medal that we own.

Does anyone know what the S stands for in the Cause of discharge box above the paragraph of the Kings Regulations that relates to "No longer fit for service"? Thanks again for all these replies.

[gatenby]

Just spoken to mum again and apparently he did last a bit longer than I thought he did. He did live to about age 51. I think he died in about 1948 but I will have to check this out on her family tree which is at her house.

[truthergw]

Mustard gas was responsible mainly for bad burns especially to moist areas of the body. Mouth, eyes, armpits and groin etc. Very painful but usually recovery would take a few weeks. If it was breathed in, it could be fatal. The fact that your relative lived for quite a few years after the war suggests that his story was similar to many other soldiers. He was gassed at some point but not badly enough to be discharged or medically downgraded. He went to Salonika and ended the war. The experts on his regiment will be able to give a good description of his likely career in the army. Like many others, the effects of the gas only really started to tell in later life. Bear in mind that TB was incurable at the time as of course were many other lung conditions, emphysema for instance. The gas may well have exacerbated his condition. For sure, it would have done nothing to help.

[gatenby]

I am trying to research my grandad named above. He enlisted on 19.1.14 having previously served with the Territorial Force of the County of Lancashire (Royal Army Medical Corps.) His discharge certificate (E.511)says he served 4 years 237 days including 4 years 39 days embodied service. His service abroad was one year 212 days in Salonika. he was discharged under para 392 (xvi) Kings Regulations on 12.9.18 as "No longer fit for service" after he suffered from gas poisoning. I don't know where or when. Any information would be gratefully received.

I have this photo of him in Malta in 1917. Looking at it now I wonder if he was at a convalescent hospital as they all seem to be wearing different caps! My grandad is on the back right. I have his medal card but it does not help much with where he was.

[gatenby]

Thanks. Have just posted a pic of him in Malta in 1917 in the soldiers forum. I am now thinking he may have been at a convalescent hospital there. He had no burns to his skin so it can't have been mustard gas. Thanks for dispelling that family myth! It's amazing how things get passed on that are not true!

[kenf48]

To clarify, now we’ve identified him! (There are actually three, the third was KIA.)

In your other post you mention he was ‘embodied’, a Territorial Force expression that effectively means ‘called up’. So that confirms he joined the Territorial Force in January 1914 and was ‘embodied’ with the rest of the Territorial Force in August 1914

Where did he live ?

Territorial Force Battalions were raised locally.Initially this Force was intended for Home Service but most of its members volunteered for overseas service. It was not the same as the present day TA.

See Long Long Trail (LLT) for fuller explanation

http://www.1914-1918.net/tf.htm

On the basis of the medals you have and the medal index card he did not go overseas until after January 1916. In the photo in the other post he may well, as you suggest, be convalescing at one of the hospitals in Malta hence the motley uniforms. According to the CWGC evacuation to Malta became less frequent after May 1917 due to U boat activity.

Gas was first used in the Salonika theatre in early 1917 and the biggest 'set piece' battle was at Dorian in April 1917.

12/9/1918 was the 255th day of the year, say he’d been home a couple of months but had been in theatre for 1 year and 212 days suggests a deployment late 1916 (which incidentally is when the 60th London Division (a TF Division) was deployed, see LLT again - but be wary of assumptions), so if he was ‘gassed’, and we should treat family memory with caution he was probably exposed to it in Salonika and definitely not at 2nd Ypres.

It is also likely that, as with one of my relatives who was with the 10th Cyclist Coy., he contracted malaria. My relative,a miner, never worked again either. As mentioned above the ratio of battle casualties to sickness in Salonika was 20:1.

The ‘S’ on the mic probably refers to ‘sickness’ which included the effects of gas, as well as the more normal definition.

The next mystery is how he went from the TF to the ASC There were a couple of Lancashire units in the 60th Division.

A look at the medal rolls at Kew should identify which ASC Company he was in, then work backwards.

Ken

[gatenby]

Wow! Thanks so much for this! Need to digest it all later after work!! He was in Lancashire. How do I get to look at the medal rolls at Kew? Is it a case of visiting in person? (Sorry if that is a very obvious question!) I had better get to work, although I would rather be doing this! It is addictive! Thanks, Caroline.

[kenf48]

Late Starter said:

He was in Lancashire. How do I get to look at the medal rolls at Kew? Is it a case of visiting in person?

We need the town/village in Lancashire.

Yes, you have to visit in person unless someone already has the ASC Roll for their research, or is prepared to look it up for you. Or you can pay a researcher.

 

Given the theatre and his unit the options are fairly limited so before embarking to Kew it may be worthwhile seeing what other searches you can do.

Ken

[Peridot]

Hi Latestarter

You could try seeing if there is a surviving Service/Pension Record on Ancestry by either using their free trial or your local library. It may also be helpful if you could post the MIC as there may be helpful information on it such as date of going abroad etc. ASC men are difficult to research without a Service Record as there are few surviving lists of men which can be compared with potential Units if any can be identified. A good source might be the Absent Voters Lists for the place where he was living in 1918, provided he was 21 or over in that year as that usually gave a Unit. These are usually found in County Record Offices or Local History Libraries or the British Library in London hold some copies. There is also a list of some known surviving ones on the LLT site at the top left of this page. Where was he living then?

If you can trace a Unit then there will be a War Diary which will give you an idea of the day to day life thereof.

Good Luck

Peridot

[gatenby]

Just checked with mum and he lived in Manchester when he enlisted. She is going to see if she can come up with a more precise part of Manchester. Thanks

[gatenby]

I wondered that. It is taken in front of a tent so I wondered if it was tent five of the hospital or something and they had become friends, or is that my female sentimentality creeping in!

[gatenby]

Here is my grandad's medal card. It does not seem to look like the others on the page I downloaded.

[gatenby]

This is the only other photo we have of him. Does the uniform help? The cap badge looks like ASC.

[Peridot]

Hi again Latestarter

I don't know what the number 5 means but it looks like it is on the top of a stake or even written on the back of a spade or shovel and is that a trench or small man made ditch in front of the men? There are things of interest on the medal card and it looks as if he did not go abroad until after January 1916 as there is an entitlement to the BWM and VM and no earlier medal. There may be another medal card. In view of the circumstances of his discharge he has a Silver War Badge and that is the reference to the List ASC/2704. The SWB was awarded to soldiers discharged due to sickness or wounds caused by the War , which would clearly cover being gassed. The lists are at Kew and would give an idea of the Unit discharged from. I am sure someone will come along with some more info on that.

Peridot

[Peridot]

Have just caught up with things on this thread and unfortunately ASC Medal Rolls rarely show Units though you are fortunate if he lived in Manchester/Salford, that there seems a reasonable survival rate of the AVLs, and there was also a volume done in the National Roll series (Vol 11 or 14 I think).

If you know the date of enlistment and more importantly the date of leaving the UK then you can try looking at the Army Monthly Returns at Kew, for a list of the Units going abroad each month, and which will help narrow down the list of possible Units, as you have known locations in France which you can compare them with along with Orders of Battle, and certainly Salonika. I have these lists for 1916 if they are of any help.

Peridot

[kenf48]

You may find this interesting http://www.rpsgb.org.uk/pdfs/mussheetmalaria.pdf (scroll down it's worth it)

The strain of malarial parasite in Salonika was the more serious falciparum strain and one of the symptoms is a cough, often with blood. Once infected even when home again the disease could reoccur regularly, the ice may have been for the fever that is also symptomatic of the disease.

Just a thought. Was he 'gassed' at all?

Ken

[gatenby]

Thanks again. Will get mum to look up the cause of death on his death certificate to see what they quoted, that might give us some clues.

Peridot, I don't seem to have the date he left this country as I was confused and thought the two medal cards were both relevant to my grandad, just the front and the back, but now it seems I was wrong and they were two different soldiers with the same name! His medal card (posted in the soldiers forum) does not give a theatre or date of entry abroad.

Can I ask what AVL's are?

Caroline