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Menin Gate


CROONAERT
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Can anyone confirm for me the criteria for a South African name appearing on the Menin Gate? I know that no New Zealand units appear on it and that it commemmorates those of the Empire/Commonwealth with no known grave who died between 4 August 1914 and August 15th 1917,but what is the ruling regarding South Africans?

I ask this as I have the medals to a South African who is on the Gate and was KIA in April 1918. None of the books that I have read regarding the Menin Gate seem to mention much of the South Africans.

Dave.

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Dave,

From memory I think around 250 South Africans killed in April 1918 are commemorated on the Menin Gate. Also commemorated are those killed in September 1917. Indeed in general the names are between the dates you mentioned. However there are exceptions in Canadians and Australians. There is even a UK soldier killed 10th September 1918 who is commemorated on The Menin Gate.

Jacky

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Found my notes back. The soldier killed 10/09/1918 was not UK but:

JURY, Private, ARTHUR, 17360. 4th Regt. (Inf.). South African Infantry. 10th September 1918. Age 22. (Served as GORY). Son of Thomas and Caroline Jury, of Kalk Bay, Cape Province. Also served in East Africa with the 1st Cape Corps.

Sorry,

Jacky :(

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Thanks Jacky.

Do you know why these South Africans/Australians/Canadians are on the Menin Gate ? Were they "forgotten" when names were being put on the Tyne Cot memorial?

Dave.

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Dave,

I'm not completely sure but my guess is it has to do with the available space on both monuments and the number of names that had to be put on both. Let's say, you have only 40,000 names (it's just a fictional number) 1914-1917 to put on the Menin Gate, but you have 15,000 Australians, Canadians and South Africans 1917-1918 that don't fit on Tyne Cot any more, if you place those 15,000 on the Menin Gate, both monuments are fully used.

Perhaps Jacky can say if I'm right?

Regards,

Jan

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I am not a 100% sure about the thesis of availability but some facts do point in that direction which make it very plausible.

- the fact that South Africans, Australians, Canadians are 'all' on the Menin Gate.

- the fact that New Zealanders, New Foundlanders are 'all' on Tyne Cot.

I have to admit that my notes have been made a long time ago and some are very hard to read even for myself

:(

A even more significant thing is that the "Order of Precedence" has not been respected in some cases. I will check it out tonight but I think in the Yeomanry units the 3rd County Of London Yeomanry is not in his right place. Another fact is that the Canadian Mounted Rifles, which in Army List of i.e. May 1916 are mentioned with the Cavalry, are mentioned on the Gate after the Infantry.

In the case of the 3rd County of London we are talking about 1 commemoration; for the Canadian Mounted Rifles units we are talking about more than 700 commemorations.

Jacky

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Jacky,

you're a bit wrong here: the New Zealanders have their own memorials to the missing. For Flanders: Messines, Polygon Wood and a separate part of the Tyne Cot Memorial to the Missing (I guess it must even have a separate name). The New Zealanders choose to remember the missing near the spot where they were killed.

Regards,

Jan

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While we are talking about names on Western Front memorials, I thought the Forum community (Is there an official consensus on a name yet?) might like to know the very latest figures from CWGC on the total number of names on each memorial.

These figures take into account names that are due to be removed for various reasons and those due to be added.

CWGC count the Tyne Cot NZ memorial as part of the main memorial and it does not have its own separate name.

Arras - 34729

Arras Flying Svs - 992

Beaumont Hamel - 814

Buttes - 378

Cambrai - 7042

Caterpillar Valley - 1205

Grevillers - 446

La Ferte-sous-Jouarre - 3740

Le Touret - 13377

Loos - 20594

Menin Gate - 54328

Messines Ridge - 828

Neuve Chapelle - 1755

Nieuport - 548

Ploegsteert - 11368

Pozieres - 14650

Soissons - 3881

Thiepval - 72090

Tyne Cot - 34870

Villers-Brettonneaux - 10772

Vimy - 11167

Vis-en-Artois - 9819

If anyone wants the latest figures for any cemetery/memorial worldwide, I can supply them.

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Does anyone know how many names have been added to the Menin Gate since it was built, and also how many names have been removed from it to date when remains have been found??

Cheers Neil.

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Neil

CWGC do not record centrally when a name is added or deleted from their database and so your question about deletions could only be answered by going through their files for each name!

However, you could count the names that appear on the Addenda Panels on the Memorial. I have photos on some of the panels but, alas, not all. Perhaps Jacky has already done this?

Also the number of names in the database will vary from the number on the actual memorial. When an addition or deletion is made, the database is amended immediately but the stonework changes happen some time later - sometimes many years later when the masonry is refurbished.

Therefore the database figure is the most accurate record of the number of names that 'should' be on the memorial.

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Further to the above...

One name not included in the latest official CWGC figure for the Menin Gate is Pte J.O'Keefe Connaught Rangers. His name appears second from the top on one of the Addenda Panels.

So far, this name has defied identification. I have been looking at this name with CWGC for some time now with no luck. The known 'Connaught Rangers Experts' are also involved.

The problem is that CWGC has no record of this casualty or why or when the name was added to the Memorial! I had to supply a photo of the panel to prove that the name was actually there.

Anybody out there who can help??

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Terry,

This figure is one of those I can really read on my notes :D

There are 639 names on the four addenda panels. Haven't researched those in depth but I know from memory that there a quite a few 2nd Bn. Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regt.) on those panels who were killed on the 11th November 1914. And also commemorated is 'The Admiral' with following mention in the register:

SMITH, Lieutenant, CYRIL ALDIN, D S O, R.N. Div. Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve attd. H.Q. 6th Div. . 10th June 1916. Age 39. Son of Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Smith, of Redington Rd., Hampstead, London; husband of Mrs. Madge Aldin-Smith. Commissioned R.M., 26th Sept., 1914, and 1st March, 1915; served at Antwerp; Commissioned R.N.V.R. 11th Sept., 1915, and lent to 6th Inf. Div. D.S.O. April, 1916, for work against enemy trenches; developed use of bullet-proof shields and Bangalore torpedoes; known as The Admiral. AddendaPanel57.

Jacky

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