Soldier in the Tank Corps help needed please.

[rachie]

Hi,

Could anyone please advise me where I need to start when looking for the service records and any details on my great grandfather who served in the Tank Corps? I am unable to get to Kew so any other alternatives would be helpful.

The only information that I have is from his medal card and his marriage certificate:

Ernest S Kinsey, pte 78158, Tank Corps. Victory and British medal on roll TC/101B4 page 600. That is the only data on his medal card, no other information, abreviations, dates or anything.

His marriage certificate dated October 1919 gives his ocupation as "Soldier Tank Corps", so presumiably he was either a regular or stayed on? Correct me if I am wrong please.

Ernest came from Brighton and 25 when he married in 1919 so still a young man and obviously survived the war.

Does the B4 on the roll reference mean Battalion 4?

If anyone can help me learn about the man behind the name and number I would be grateful.

Rachel

[kenf48]

Assume you've looked at the links at the top of the page, there is a brief history of the tank corps here http://www.1914-1918.net/tanks.htm I can't find any other records for him on the other site so it's likely they were among those destroyed during the blitz. You can check for yourself using the library edition of Ancestry.

The problem with numbering for the Tank Corps is the majority of the recruits had served in other units prior to being posted to the MGC (Heavy Section) and they are more often than not indexed under their old regimental number.

I can't find another card for him but as he was 25 in 1919 he would have been eligible for conscription as a result of the Military Service Act 1915 (as amended) if he had not already volunteered. The Act assumed all men from 19 to 41 were fit for military service and eligible for call up, We can say with certainty from the mic he did not go overseas until after January 1916 but he may have had specialist skills which deferred his call up until later.

Private 75940 Patterson was renumbered on transfer to the MGC 5/1/1917 and 76120 was allocated on 7/1/17 (note these were transfers into the MGC, the numbers were retained when the unit became the Tank Corps later that year). 87958 was allocated in August 1917 so its a fair bet he was posted to the Tank Corps early in 1917. Th only way to find his battallion is to search the rolls (unless someone has them). I don't believe you can rely on B4 being the 4th Bn.

A possible shortcut is the Brighton roll of honour which may or may not exist and may or may not include all those who served as well as those who died. Worth checking at the local library if you live in Brighton.

The soldiers referred to above were either demobilised in March 1920, or were on the 'z' reserve. Soldiers were not demobilised at the Armistice, he may have been a regular ( 1911 census (?)) but it's more likely he was waiting demobilisation when he married.

Another thought if you are in Brighton was the wedding reported in the local newspaper? It might give some further information about him.

Not a lot of help but thougt I'd start the ball rolling...

Ken

[headgardener]

Th only way to find his battallion is to search the rolls (unless someone has them). I don't believe you can rely on B4 being the 4th Bn.

Ken is right; 'b4' is a reference to the medal roll index, it doesn't refer to his unit.

[delta]

The date of the number does link to one of the first battalions

Not a member of F (6th) Bn - not much help but does reduce the options.

Stephen

[rachie]

Thank you for your help, I now know more than I did yesterday, and even if I don't get his records, every little bit helps as they say.

I will give ancestry another bash (didn't get too far last time) when I get a chance - maybe Tues or Weds, but I must say there are so many Kinseys it is tough going!.

You have helped me gentlemen, thank you.

Rachel

[17tankman]

Hi

L/Cpl E S Kinsey was in the 8th Battalion

Simon

[rachie]

Hi Simon,

Thanks for that - I had him down as a private though? How can I double check it is the same man?

Rachel

[17tankman]

Rachel

It is the same man. I will have a look to see why there is a different rank could have been promoted after the war or demoted after.

Simon

[KevinBattle]

Don't forget it could be an "acting" or temporary rank, for a probationary period before a promotion would be confirmed. He would only be entitled to a privates rate of pension etc...

[rachie]

Thank you, thank you,

I really don't know much about Ernest so this is all quite exciting for me. 8th battalion helps a lot, it makes looking for records easier.

Is it likely that there may be any records in the tank museum? Although I am in Newcastle I shall be going to Exeter late August so might manage a day there if it is likely to be fruitfull. I think if I tried to do Kew I would be lost like a needle in a haystack.

I think finding out about his promotion would be great.

Rachel

[headgardener]

Thanks for that - I had him down as a private though? How can I double check it is the same man?

Technically, the rank of Lance Corporal is an 'appointment' rather than a formal rank, therefore his rank is 'technically' that of Private. Generally the rank of Pte will appear on medals and many other official documents even though the man in question had one stripe on his arm.

[17tankman]

Rachel

Have checked my records and Kinsey was a private in the war ie in a war zone so his medals would be Private but he was promoted later and as he never went into a war zone when a L/Cpl this will not appear on his medals but he was a L/Cpl. Hope this makes sense to you.

An officer who was a Lt in the war zone would have his WW1 medal say Lt even though when war ended he was a Major. To get Major on his medals he must have served in a war zone when a Major.

Simon

[headgardener]

Have checked my records and Kinsey was a private in the war ie in a war zone so his medals would be Private but he was promoted later and as he never went into a war zone when a L/Cpl this will not appear on his medals but he was a L/Cpl. Hope this makes sense to you.

An officer who was a Lt in the war zone would have his WW1 medal say Lt even though when war ended he was a Major. To get Major on his medals he must have served in a war zone when a Major.

Hi Simon, you're right about ranks on medals, but the exception are 'Lance' ranks (L/Cpl, L/Sgt). Many WW1 medal groups will have the rank 'L/Cpl' on the 14 or 15 star, yet the pair will have 'Pte', and people imagine that the man must have lost his stripe somehow, but I've read several sources which state that L/Cpl was an 'appointment' and therefore didn't count as a rank for most army regiments and corps, and therefore it generally doesn't appear on most, if not all, BW&VM pairs. I don't know why this didn't apply to the star, but the pairing of a 'L/Cpl' star and a 'Pte' BW&VM is a common one.

You'll generally see on service records that men would be 'appointed L/Cpl', but would subsequently be 'promoted Cpl'.

[rachie]

Hi Simon,

Thank you for that information, it all helps to understand the person behind the name.

Are you able to help me make sense of Kens comments earlier about Ernest not being sent overseas until Jan 1916. Ken mentions conscription in 1915, I thought this was the end of Jan 1916? So if Ernest was sent overseas in Jan 1916, surely he would have been a volunteer not a conscription. Before the war he was a baker, and I am quite certain that did not give him the skills he needed to be in the Tank Corps.

Any help?

Rachel

[headgardener]

Are you able to help me make sense of Kens comments earlier about Ernest not being sent overseas until Jan 1916. Ken mentions conscription in 1915, I thought this was the end of Jan 1916? So if Ernest was sent overseas in Jan 1916, surely he would have been a volunteer not a conscription. Before the war he was a baker, and I am quite certain that did not give him the skills he needed to be in the Tank Corps

The Military Service Act was passed in 1915. It created a register of men who would be eligible for military service, and also placed them in categories according to their trades or professions; 'important' tradesmen or professionals would only be called up once those 'less important' had been called. I imagine that a baker was a relatively less important category. More importantly, the Militarty Service Act created a legal obligation on men to serve in the army (i.e. conscription) unless there were important reasons (medical/age/profession) why they should not.

Impossible to know for certain whether your man was a volunteer or a conscript. His service papers may give you some indication, but if he joined up sometime from early 1916 onwards he would probably have been a conscript. The fact that conscription existed did not mean that men did not volunteer, but it took away the 'necessity' for them to volunteer, and the numbers of volunteers after this period was dwarfed by the numbers of conscripts. Your man's army number dates from jan 1917, therfore it is highly likely that he was a conscript, unless he had some other service prior to the Tank Corps which is not recorded on the MIC.

We also know that your man went overseas sometime after january 1916 based on his medal entitlement; had he gone overseas in 1914 or 1915 he would have been entitled to a campaign medal in recognition of this (the 1914 or 1915 star). Anyone who went abroad at any date from 1st january 1916 until the end of hostilities was entitled to a British war Medal and Victory medal only. Recipients of a 14 or 15 star would also have recieved a BW&VM.

[rachie]

Thank you, that explains it clearly and I now understand much better.

You have all been kind to take the time to help me.

Rachel

[17tankman]

Rachel

As your grandfather was in the 8th Battalion Tank Corps (formerly H Battalion) he could not have been in France until August 1917 (unless with another unit) as this was when they were sent out. As he was not awarded a 1914 or 1914/15 Star he was not over then. As MIC cards can be wrong without the service history cant be perfect but my belief is he probably joined up late 1916 and after training he went to France in 1917.

He would still have been an early tanker as their first battle was in Sept 1916. Your grandfather's regiment saw plenty of action as in 1918 the Germans did a huge push and most of the tank battalions were nearly destroyed and most had no tanks and the soldiers became Machine Gunners on Foot to try and stop the Germans. It was a very close call.

I do hope the family has kept his medals.

Simon

[kenf48]

Sorry if I confused you. What I was trying to say was the earliest he could have gone overseas was January 1916, but as the only regiment/corps mentioned on his mic was the Tank Corps it was likely that he went overseas in 1917 because usually if a Tank Corps recruit gained eligibility for campaign medals with another regiment then that regiment is listed on the card.

Given his age he could have volunteered at any time from 1914 I think it's unlikely he did, but as stated above it's impossible to say whether he or not he did. The timing and a regimental number from early 1917 suggests he was called up, and after basic training posted to the Tank Corps going overseas with them as above.

what I was really trying to say was informed guesses could be made from the info not on the card as much as that which was and even a scanty card could help

Ken

[Repe4]

Trying to piece together my grandfathers ww1 history for my aged aunt, any help would be appreciated. I have traced so far- Frank Reynolds Jarman DOB: July 1899 born HAM London. Enlisted 3rd East Anglian field ambulance RAMC on 5.8.1914 as bugler (|Demob cert) Discharged 9.3.1919 from Tank Corps medical grade 2 lung damage and lost an eye wounded. I have two MIC. number RAMC 1923 and Tank Corp 92991 on his VictoryTC/101/12/6 page 936 with ditto british with 1915 star tank/ic page 102. 1st served 2B Balkans 12.8.15. The other Silver War badge index card- Jarman FR says enlisted 12.1.14. Tank Corps . Action Taken "List Tanks /108. I have his SWB with number on reverse B207144. He served in Gallipoli with RAMC then volunteered for "special mission" which turned out to be the first tanks used in ww1. He always recounted being in the first tank/s at the Somme which I now know was Sept 1916, he also was in a tank at Bourlon Wood at the battle of Cambrai Nov/Dec 1917. It was at the latter battle that I believe he sustained his eye injury and spent the remaining year in a hospital in leeds recovering. He suffered with a chest complaint as a result of gas used and im sure tank fumes, he never claimed pension. He informed my brother that he was chosen as a tank driver as he used to drive the local grocer van in London! He married and had 5 children lived in fareham Hants and died in Portsmouth in 1975. I would be grateful of any information regards tank companies etc as i think his military record was in the destroyed files.

Regards

Paul Kingston

[KevinBattle]

Whilst the Mods might spot this and move it to its own thread, in the meantine

You might want to look at this website to see if any mention there:-

First Tank Crews

which I found very helpful when researching a chap in Chiswick.

The benefit of putting it in a separate thread is because we do have some very knowledgeable tank people on here and it will give them a better chance to add their information.

If this isn't moved by the Mods, then start a separate thread, ensuring "Tank" is in the header!!!

Good luck!

[delta]

From his Tank Corps number, he would have joined after the first four battalions were expanded from companies around Christmas 1916. He is not listed with either C or D Company - whose records are fairly good - and whilst he might have fought with A and B Coys, I think it unlikely.

If he fought at Bourlon, he would have served in D, E or G Bns; the SWB records show he was discharged owing to wounds but sadly (unlike some records), the Bn is not listed.

[Repe4]

Thankyou for that, I have tried 1st tanks.

Whilst the Mods might spot this and move it to its own thread, in the meantine

You might want to look at this website to see if any mention there:-

First Tank Crews

which I found very helpful when researching a chap in Chiswick.

The benefit of putting it in a separate thread is because we do have some very knowledgeable tank people on here and it will give them a better chance to add their information.

If this isn't moved by the Mods, then start a separate thread, ensuring "Tank" is in the header!!!

Good luck!

[Repe4]

Thank you. I will keep looking.

From his Tank Corps number, he would have joined after the first four Battalions were expanded from companies around Christmas 1916. He is not listed with either C or D Company - whose records are fairly good - and whilst he might have fought with A and B Coys, I think it unlikely.

If he fought at Cambrai, he would have served in A to I Battalions of the Tank Corps; the SWB records show he was discharged owing to wounds but sadly (unlike some records), the Bn is not listed/

[delta]

If he fought at Bourlon, he would have served in D, E or G Bns

[Repe4]

My best guess would be he served with "G" as he had 2x books he treasured- "G" and the Tank Battalion and 3rd east Anglian field ambulance. Thank you.

If he fought at Bourlon, he would have served in D, E or G Bns