Victorian Upper Class

[PhilB]

It is popularly believed that, in late Victorian upper and upper middle class families, the eldest son would take over the estate, the brighter other sons would enter the professions while the the not so bright would join the army or go to the colonies. The daughters would seek a good match. The armies of WW1 (all the armies) would have, as senior officers, men born into this period. Is there reason to believe that the belief is true (and the armies got the plodders) or would a talented young man from those classes be just as likely to take a commission whatever his place in the family? And would it matter anyway?

[Muerrisch]

I can recommend two books to read before tackling this essay subject:

The Army in Victorian Society by Gwyn Harries=Jenkins, and

The Late Victorian Army by Edward M Spiers.

[Kate Wills]

while the the not so bright would join the army or go to the colonies.

"and by tradition had sent to fool of the family into the church"

from the filmscript of Kind Hearts & Coronets

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Phil

It mainly depends on whether you are thinking of the "old money" aristocrats of the landed families or the rich industrial barons. In the latter case there was less of a tradition of sending sons into the Army: in fact more than just the eldest were likely to be found places in the family business.

In the landed families your assumption is more likely to hold, but not universally. Many of them sent their younger sons into politics - Lord John Russell, Lord Stanley etc. Sending them into the Army, especially in India where there were potential possible savings out of their pay, was an option but an officer needed private means in order to live at home, as his pay would not cover his likely expenses.

As well as the sourcesc mentioned by Grumpy, you might try Brian Bond's The Victorian Army and the Staff College.

Ron

[truthergw]

Intriguing question, Phil. As you say, that seems to be the widely held view. The Duke of Wellington's mother is the exemplar for it. And yet.... There could have been no hard and fast rule. There seem to have been military families. The Goughs spring to mind and there were others where the family trade seems to have been soldiering. There are also exceptions. Haig would have been expected to join the family business or at least, a seat on the board of the later amalgamation would have been his for the asking. He chose to apply for a commission. Sir John French joined the navy before swallowing the anchor and pursuing a military career. The two CiCs of the Great war who were not following a family tradition. I wonder if there was not an over generalisation. A sporadic trend was exaggerated into a common practice? There are lots of social questions lurking just below the surface here. The role of the aristocracy in Britain. The rise of the working class and its demand for education. The effect of this social evolution on the middle class. I suspect that this may not be a Great War question or even a military history one.

[PhilB]

Haig would have been expected to join the family business or at least, a seat on the board of the later amalgamation would have been his for the asking.

Haig was IIRC the youngest of 5 brothers - possibly a precarious position in a late Victorian upperclass household! How many siblings can the board of a family firm absorb?

[battiscombe]

A propos the social makeup of the officer corps - if a bit off-topic? - I WAS quite struck the other day in seeing the 1911 census returns for the RMA at Woolwich in my grandfathers contemporaries (artillery cadets) .. with numerous overseas birthplaces suggestive of the military family and imperial service connections I guess.. his eldest brother did indeed stay at home (albeit Yeomanry officer) next brother KRRC, three RFA and another KRRC...one too young for the war went to University!

a random selection:

BROWN, LOUIS NOEL FRANCIS SINGLE 19 COLOMBO CEYLON

BROWNING, LANGLEY SINGLE 19 MADRAS INDIA

BURDSKIN, GEOFFREY ERIC SINGLE 19 SHIFFIELD YORKSHIRE

BURROWS, EDMUND WILLIAM MONTAGNE SINGLE 18 HILLINGDON MIDDLESEX

CADELL, HENRY MONTRAY SINGLE 19 BONESS LONLITHGONSHIRE

CAMERON, CYRIL HENRY SINGLE 19 LICHFIELD STAFFORDSHIRE

CAMPBELL, DUNCAN ALASTAIR SINGLE 19 GILLINGHAM KENT

CAMPBELL, JAMES OLIPHARTS SINGLE 19 RICHMOND MIDDLESEX

CARDEW, REGINALD SINGLE 19 SCIND INDIA

CAREW, REGINALD LIONEL OTHO SINGLE 19 ARINCESTER GLOUCESTERSHIRE

CAREY, RUPERT O'DMAGHUR SINGLE 19 RAIPUR INDIA

CANDLE, HOWARD CHARLES ROBERT SINGLE 19 HALLIPUTH INDIA

MUSTERS, ANTHONY CHAWORTH SINGLE 18 ANNESLEY NOTTS

CHIDSON, MONTAGUE SINGLE 17 CHISWICK MIDDLESEX

CLARK, CHARLES GORDON RONALDSON SINGLE 19 DHARMSALA INDIA

CHUTHAM, GEOFFREY SINGLE 19 BENGAL INDIA

CLERY, NOEL CAIRNS SINGLE 18 PUNYANT INDIA

CLERY, VIVIAN AUGUSTINE CAIRNS SINGLE 19 SIMLA INDIA

COLLINS, STEWART ST BARBE SINGLE 18 BERMUDA ISLANDS

COOKE, JOSEPH GABBELT MAUNSELL SINGLE 19 DOVER KENT

CONYBEARE, EDWARD BRUCE SINGLE 18 N E PROVINCES INDIA

COTTRALL, ARTHUR FOULKIES BAGLIETTO SINGLE 19 VALETTA MALTA

COURAGS, JOHN HUBERT SINGLE 19 B EDALE YORKSHIRE

CRAWFORD, KENNETH BREDIN SHAKESPEAR SINGLE 18 MADRAS INDIA

CREAGH, DUNCAN VANDOLOUR SINGLE 18 DUBLIN

CROSS, THOMAS EDWARD KYNASTON SINGLE 19 OTTAWA CANADA

CROWE, WILLIAM HENRY FRANCIS SINGLE 19 PLYMOUTH DEVON

CUMMING, OTHO SYDNEY SINGLE 18 PLYMOUTH DEVON

CURRY, WILLIAM LEONARD SINGLE 19 N W INDIA

DANBY, WILLIAM ALFRED SINGLE 19 HONG KONG

DEANE, JOHN ALFRED LYALL SINGLE 18 KASHMIR INDIA

[PhilB]

Finding useful employment (& good education) for the sons of families in the colonies must have been particularly tricky and the prospect of a cadetship particularly appealing!

[Muerrisch]

Hello Phil

It mainly depends on whether you are thinking of the "old money" aristocrats of the landed families or the rich industrial barons. In the latter case there was less of a tradition of sending sons into the Army: in fact more than just the eldest were likely to be found places in the family business.

In the landed families your assumption is more likely to hold, but not universally. Many of them sent their younger sons into politics - Lord John Russell, Lord Stanley etc. Sending them into the Army, especially in India where there were potential possible savings out of their pay, was an option but an officer needed private means in order to live at home, as his pay would not cover his likely expenses.

As well as the sourcesc mentioned by Grumpy, you might try Brian Bond's The Victorian Army and the Staff College.

Ron

and another couple:

The Victorian Army at Home, James Ramsay Skelley, and

Gallant Gentlemen by ES Turner.

[truthergw]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jun 19 2010, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haig was IIRC the youngest of 5 brothers - possibly a precarious position in a late Victorian upperclass household! How many siblings can the board of a family firm absorb?

In what way was his position precarious? Haig's father oversaw the creation of the Distillers Co. which included the family firm. His eldest brother ran the company. Haig was a shareholder. A position on the board was his for the asking. His elder sister was married to a Jameson of the Irish distilling family. Again, a position with that firm would have been easily arranged. There is evidence that Douglas Haig went to university after discussion with his mother and eldest brother, with the intention of entering some profession. At that time there is no evidence that a military career was contemplated.

[Perth Digger]

It's easy to forget just how big a playground the Empire was for Britons in the decades leading up to the war. 30% of the AIF being British-born is one piece of evidence. From the middle classes upwards there is good evidence of massive mobility in the British population. Many lands of opportunity out there. I remember reading somewhere that one of the reasons the war's demographic impact on Britain was so small was that just as many who died would otherwise have emigrated. Wasn't there a massive loss of males between the 1901 and 1911 censuses, distorting male-female ratios even before the war?

Mike

A propos the social makeup of the officer corps - if a bit off-topic? - I WAS quite struck the other day in seeing the 1911 census returns for the RMA at Woolwich in my grandfathers contemporaries (artillery cadets) .. with numerous overseas birthplaces suggestive of the military family and imperial service connections I guess.

[PhilB]

Most of the Woolwich colonials look to come from India. Maybe the career opportunities for young men were different there to the "white" colonies?

[Ron Clifton]

Phil

More important was the fact that Canada and Australia had populations of four to five million each (and the other "white" dominions less) and over 100 million lived in India? India also produced a lot of raw materials (e.g. jute) which the Empire needed generally. It therefore needed a greater proportion of men with the ability (or, in younger men, the aptitude) to create and run the kind of businesses which best utilised the country's resources.

Ron

[janecavell]

a random selection:

BROWN, LOUIS NOEL FRANCIS SINGLE 19 COLOMBO CEYLON

How very spooky that L.N.F. Brown should appear at the top of your list. I have been trying to find out if he is a relative of mine! My great-grandfather Oscar Brown and his elder brother Frank had very similar careers, both eventually becoming Chief Inspectors of Ordnance Machinery. They both moved around a great deal, which combined with their exceedingly common surname makes it hard to trace their children's births. Oscar's children were born in Woolwich, India, Ceylon, Ireland and Hong Kong between the 1890s and 1910. Frank's I know less about, but I know there was a son Noel.

I will have to check the Army List to see if Frank was anywhere near Colombo in around 1892 when Louis Noel Francis Brown would have been born.

Certainly my Browns weren't upper class: their grandfather had been a glass bottle maker in Sunderland. His son (probably thanks to more educational opportunities) became an engineer at Woolwich Arsenal. Frank and Oscar were the first (as far as I know) of that part of the family to have a career in the army, going into RA then AOC. There was no family estate to inherit so I would guess that they did whatever they had the aptitude for or whatever came their way: Oscar had started out as a draughtsman at the Arsenal, I think. There were other brothers who didn't do so well and who were later described by my great-uncle as "non-U".

But that's a real side-track, sorry . . .

[per ardua per mare per terram]

. . . Frank and Oscar were the first (as far as I know) of that part of the family to have a career in the army, going into RA then AOC. . .

Even in the Napoleonic era the 'technical' corps like artillery and engineers were areas where money and influence were less beneficial.

Have you checked amongst the India Office records (at the British Library), particularly Indian Army for the details you're after?

[IPT]

I'd always thought the youngest was dressed as a girl and became a vicar?

I have no source for this.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jun 20 2010, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most of the Woolwich colonials look to come from India. Maybe the career opportunities for young men were different there to the "white" colonies?

Maybe if you studied the period you would learn more about it. The Indian Army dwafted that of any other colonies, was set up and administered differently. There were scholarships provided at Sandhurst and Woolwich for the sons of Indian Army officers. In addition to the Indian Army there were 'career opportunities' in the Indian Civil Service, engineering posts (such as the railways) and a myriad of other tasks in addition to colonial exploitation such growing plantations. Some wives went out too, and families were brought up in India usually for early years before the boys would often be sent to boarding schools. William Leefe Robinson is an example.