Help From The Sherlocks: Unknown Soldier ID

[At Home Dad]

Hallo all

In my latest research on the men of the West Ham Battalion I have met

with the family of one Officer. His son met with a soldier who served under

him and managed, in the mid 1970's to record on cassette an interview.

Sadly, he didn't record the chaps name and doesn't remember it now. But there

are several facts mentioned which might help narrow it down perhaps.

I'm always amazed at what gets turned up on GWF, often from the smallest detail!

I'll be passing the audio on to the Sound Archive at Imperial War Museum but wanted

to see if anything could be revealed by the sherlocks here

I think what we have is a veteran of Loos. Loos was his units first action. He was wounded out

later and returned in March 1917, sent to the 13th Essex, prior to their attack at Oppy Wood.

He was captured at Lock No5, Moeuvres, November 30th 1917.

He did One Year and 33 days POW, first at Minden, then at Schneidermule.

He was repatriated, leaving Danzig 21st December 1918 on a Danish Red Cross ship.

Arrived Leith, Christmas Eve, made to stay onboard until Christmas Day.

Civilian Train to Ripley, to get re-clothed in khaki.

Only seat available was in the toilet with two other blokes.

He was most likely born in Deadham, a small village near Colchester in Essex.

Facts, as I have them, from the audio:

"Yes, I was at the Battle of Loos. That was the first battle we was in. They reckon there was forty five thousand casualties in a week. We marched from Boulogne and into action, 90 miles. Didn’t do it in one day. We used to march of an evening and in the dark and lie up under hedges during the day and carry on."

Question: Were you there at the start of that battle?

Answer: No, no. We were late. We were late in arrival. The Jocks went over in front of us. We took over the Jocks. And the Germans called them ‘Women from Hell’. (laughs)

Is that enough to possibly ID his original Battalion/Regiment?

Many thanks for any assistance

[Heid the Ba]

Edit to amend earlier post: Possibly 24th Division which had a battalion of the Essex Regiment in it and marched from the ports into reserve and into action on the second day of Loos.

Nial Cherry who wrote "Most unsuitable ground" is a forumite and will have more idea than me.

[Chris_Baker]

Sounds like a unit of 21st or 24th Division to me. As he was a southerner, 24th Division the most likely.

At 1pm on 25 September, the 73rd Brigade of 24th Division was ordered to reinforce Fosse 8 - in the area of 9th (Scottish) Division.

So that would narrow it down to

12th Bn, the Royal Fusiliers

9th Bn, the Royal Sussex Regiment

7th Bn, the Northamptonshire Regiment

13th Bn, the Middlesex Regiment

[Stebie9173]

The Loos battalion sounds very much like it was in the 24th Division.

1) The arrived in France at the end of August/beginning of September 1915

2) The marched straight into battle after going to the Front.

3) The arrived late into the battale and I know that the 7th Northamptons took over from Scottish troops.

So possibly the 11th Battalion in 71st Brigade?

71st Brigade transferred to 6th Division soon thereafter.

The 21st Division had a very similar introduction, but had no battalions of the Essex Regiment in it.

Steve.

P.S> Sorry Chris. Posts crossed....

[At Home Dad]

Fantastic, everyone!

Thanks for the clues and pointers

A couple more hints which might reveal more:

From landing at Boulogne and marching to the Front "we stopped in a potato field and we had orders to leave it. What we didn’t want, we was to leave in the field. Our blackening brushes, tin plates, knives and forks, spoons, our clothes... The Old Frenchman made a real… Then after the battle of Loos, we didn’t have nothing to use!"

This might help ID the Scottish unit, was this common practise of rum freely available like this?

When asked if he got a rum ration before he went into action at Loos he replies "Yes! Well, the trench we took over, off the Jocks, you can believe me, that every few yards there was a bottle of rum, sometimes the top was took off and an enamel mug, you could help yourself...."

very kindest regards

E

[high wood]

Your posting seems to suggest that he was sent to the 13th Essex sometime after the Battle of Loos so he was not necessarily in the Essex Regiment during the battle or have I misread it?

[owen4256]

E

If I can field a contender?

The 11th Essex landed at Boulogne.

I've compared the casualty list for the 11th Essex for Loos with the POW list for 13th Essex at Moeuvres.

16344 Pte Walter Layzell was wounded with 11th Essex at Loos and captured at Moeuvres with the 13th Essex.The POW list shows his next of kin in Bradfield, Essex.

He is the only man to appear on both lists...

Clive

[At Home Dad]

And that is spot on for a wild chance!

Clive, that's a bloody good call!!

I never expected such a potential result

Thank you very very much indeed

Bradfield is just over the water from Brantham where the original Officer lived

(and his son still lives) and both places fall under the postal area of Manningtree,

so that places our 'unknown chap' absolute bang on dead centre to the area,

bloody marvellous!

"I had a months Demob and two months to recuperate. I’d been at

home a fortnight and I got a job. I stuck it 37 years. On the railway.

I was on the Brantham line a little while..."

Thank you again, everyone for you help, especially Clive - simply amazing.

**still continually staggered by the depth of knowledge, generosity and overall helpfulness on this forum**

[owen4256]

Elliott

I used to live in Bradfield. Took the dog for a walk there on Saturday...

It would be a fantastic result to identify your man. Since it all seemed to fit nicely I thought I would do some further checking just to make sure.

The 1911 Census has Walter Layzell Living Bradfield Age 21 born Tendring 1890 which I believe to be 16344 Layzell. The POW list has Nok Bradfield and there is only one Layzell family in Bradfield and only one Walter in the family.So far so good.

However. I've now checked The Index of Deaths which shows a Walter Layzell age 69 dying in Colchester in 1960. There are no other Walter Layzells on the 1911 census who were the right age to be the Walter Layzell who died in Colchester district in 1960.

A perfect fit in every other respect and could still have worked on the Railway for 37 years after the war, just the minor problem of being dead a decade before the recording was made.

I will have another look at the POW list for Moeuvres and see if there are other candidates as transfer in to the 13th

Sorry for raising hopes

Clive

[At Home Dad]

Clive, still all good so far!

I shall call my chap later and ask him two things: when the recording was definately made

and whether Walter Layzell was the name of the man he interviewed.

One other clue, either way: on arrival at the 13/Bn trenches (Mar '17), when asked by 'my' Officer

where he comes from he does state Dedham. It turned out that our unknown chap knew the Officers

father.

It's still bang on for the area though, and for that alone, still quite staggering!

He was also a member of B Coy at Lock 5 if that helps at all, captured in the

assault which forced Capt Keeble and survivors to fall back. Keeble made him

a Platoon leader, based on his Loos experience, so would he have also been a L/Cpl?

very best

E

[Heid the Ba]

This might help ID the Scottish unit, was this common practise of rum freely available like this?

When asked if he got a rum ration before he went into action at Loos he replies "Yes! Well, the trench we took over, off the Jocks, you can believe me, that every few yards there was a bottle of rum, sometimes the top was took off and an enamel mug, you could help yourself...."

I find it hard to believe that any true Scotsman would leave drink behind.