BWM Fake?

[Arnhem44]

I read on another American forum that a guy had seen at least five of these type of medals all named to different people being sold at a militaria fair there,of course he didn't take down there details.So there maybe lots more of these about than one would like.

Brendan

[PhilB]

So there maybe lots more of these about than one would like.

Brendan

Lucky that they`re so easy to spot!

[Arnhem44]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jun 9 2010, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lucky that they`re so easy to spot!

For some people yes but there's always some unsuspecting soul out there.

Brendan

[Bombadier]

Hello,

Perhaps there ought to be something on the forum where fakes and mis-identified items can be seen, and therefore a worthwhile service for the unsuspecting.

Owain.

I believe that something like this has been suggested before but was not proceeded with as it could become a faker's guide to mistakes not to make. This would have the undesired effect of improving the quality of fakes and making them harder to detect.

Nigel

[centurion]

I believe that something like this has been suggested before but was not proceeded with as it could become a faker's guide to mistakes not to make. This would have the undesired effect of improving the quality of fakes and making them harder to detect.

Nigel

The other problem would be if an item for sale was 'outed' as a fake and it wasn't but didn't sell as a result. Good news for vult..... I mean lawyers.

[Philip Wilson]

The other problem would be if an item for sale was 'outed' as a fake and it wasn't but didn't sell as a result. Good news for vult..... I mean lawyers.

I agree - some years ago I chaired a Session on 'Fakes and Forgeries' at the Weekend of Medals at Banbury - when we put a sizeable number of fake medals on the table. Nearly all of them had something wrong with them ranging from poor quality copies through to very good forgeries, including laser copies.

Those present being asked to identify what was wrong with each item, not everybody got a 100% score for the subject of medals is complex and these days 'the real forgerers' are quite expert.

The more knowledge one acquires then the less chance there is of falling into the trap of buying a dud item. Such knowledge can be gleaned from membership of a Medal Collecting Club or Society, from standard works on medals, or from the internet itself. The originator of this thread is to be commended for drawing our attention to this subject.

Philip

[PhilB]

I suspect that a WW1 trio is particularly difficult to fake. Has that been attempted yet?

[centurion]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jun 9 2010, 07:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suspect that a WW1 trio is particularly difficult to fake. Has that been attempted yet?

More to the point has one been detected yet?

[Philip Wilson]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jun 9 2010, 07:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suspect that a WW1 trio is particularly difficult to fake. Has that been attempted yet?

Yes unfortunately there are fake WW1 trios in circulation - the style of naming is not always accurate. These include name erased groups with new details inserted which are fairly obvious to spot to the trained eye.

There are of course plenty of shiny reproduction WW1 Medals(made in recent years) which sometimes turn up named.Often relatives have these medals privately named because they cannot locate the originals.

There are subtle differences between an original medal and a copy. In years to come those subtle differences should still be apparent.

Philip

[Ghost]

Third and final question. Where, and by whom, is this likely to have been made?

No body has suggested who is likely to make these fakes, is it eastern block, Chinese or a Marcus Glindon type in Enfield?

Alan

[headgardener]

No body has suggested who is likely to make these fakes, is it eastern block, Chinese or a Marcus Glindon type in Enfield?

I suggested that they were (relatively) mass-produced for a very different market to the one they've ended up in (see my earlier posts, esp No.9). I remember looking very carefully at the ones that I found in frames and I remember assuming that they been framed here in the UK. Done very tidily, but pretty cheap materials. Nevertheless, it was the sort of thing that would have retailed for £18-20 (I think the ones in the auction sold for somewhere between £10-15 each), at a time when the average BWM would have been a fraction of that.

It was only BWM's too. Not much decorative value in the other 2.

[KIRKY]

We are sometimes asked to supply replica WW1 medals and they do look different. The ones we use are MOD approved and we have been sent others which are obviously not!

Apparently there is a guy in Birmingham who creates moulds and uses alloys to copy any medals, he does this in his kitchen, then he sells them on a well known auction site as Museum copies! MOD tried to stop him but not yet succeeded. I think MOD approved medals have to have "copy" printed on them.

Better to have a replica than erase a name!

Tony

[Staffsyeoman]

Those Birmingham-originated duff medals have been around since the late 1970s to my knowledge; they were then made of a plated lead alloy. I had a Mediterranean Medal for a few years. I saw another where the word 'copy' had been stamped at the end of the Queen's Garter sash, but filled in with what looked like solder.

I once saw a dealer (not in militaria) try to sell someone a Military Medal made this way at a high mark up - the purchaser says "the real ones swivel" - and [deliberately] snaps the suspender off...

[auchonvillerssomme]

I have a reproduction CSM which I use for services etc, obviously unnamed, but exactly the same as the original, same weight, same size, same feel, it is basically an unnamed CSM. Nowhere does it say 'copy'. Won't be long before they start appearing with interesting units if they haven't already. For NI the interesting units whith a premium aren't only the Para, try buying a QARANC or RAMC, not obvious but the mark up would be incredible.

[depaor01]

For some people yes but there's always some unsuspecting soul out there.

Brendan

In this case I was VERY suspecting, but alas not enough to walk away... I could've passed up the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to own the little-known "ultra lightweight" BWM variant....

[(nzef)]

OH MY!

I'm sorry - But that has to be one of the worst fakes I've seen. Of course, I've been collecting for years so you can't be blamed for picking it up and taking it home. Caveat Emptor!

As has been mentioned, copies are produced for all sorts of reasons - In this case it does indeed smack of the popular auction site vendor who passes on privately made copies of medals in his collection...pah!

I had to get the NZDF involved in once case when he was passing off a solid silver replica WW2 memorial cross (named correctly) to a NZ Pilot! - His defence was that the original was in his collection - pah again!

I haven't looked up his MIC - but it could be he was a first day Somme Casualty or a gallantry medal winner e.t.c e.t.c - So a simple BWM can suddenly be more valuable - but people who tend to know all that info wouldnt be fooled with this particular example.

Cheers

[wainfleet]

As someone said earlier, keep it as a reminder not to let wishful thinking obscure your judgement. "When in doubt, leave it out." And don't feel too bad about it, because there is not a single serious collector who has never bought a fake.

As the price of experience goes, you are getting off pretty lightly with 28 euros!

[Arnhem44]

In this case I was VERY suspecting, but alas not enough to walk away... I could've passed up the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to own the little-known "ultra lightweight" BWM variant....

Please don't think that comment was aimed at you personally,we've all being there at some stage in our collecting time and no doubt most here I would think would say that they have had some ringer in their collection at some time or another.Having no access to fairs and meets for some time myself I have relied heavily on the Internet for my purchases and on the strength of that have been caught more than once with German awards,enough to make me give up on that field of collecting.

Brendan

[depaor01]

Please don't think that comment was aimed at you personally

Brendan

No problem Brendan.

I think it was worth 28 Euro just for this thread! Especially to see the photo of the original medal.

Thanks all,

Dave

[dfaulder]

>><<most here I would think would say that they have had some ringer in their collection at some time or another.>><<

Brendan

So what does one do with the "ringer"?

David

(Custodian of my Grandfather's BWM/VM handed down via my father)

[headgardener]

So what does one do with the "ringer"?

David

(Custodian of my Grandfather's BWM/VM handed down via my father)

Apart from sticking it on e-bay, you mean.....?

[Terry_Reeves]

Ahemm, I'm a bit concerned that my trade mark is being brought into disrepute. The BWM was die-struck so this tale of two halves, so to speak, seems more than a but suspicious.

TR (of Enterprise fame)

[Unknownsoldier]

Ahemm, I'm a bit concerned that my trade mark is being brought into disrepute. The BWM was die-struck so this tale of two halves, so to speak, seems more than a but suspicious.

TR (of Enterprise fame)

What trademark being brought into disrepute? And the point about two halves?????? It's a copy and this is how they are copied with a two half mold, the originals were of course die struck.

Tom

[Arnhem44]

So what does one do with the "ringer"?

David

(Custodian of my Grandfather's BWM/VM handed down via my father)

Frame it and hang it on the wall to remind oneself not to do it again

Brendan

[Terry_Reeves]

Tom

Humour. That was my point, but not everybody knows that.

Yours ect

TR - Chairman - TR (Enterprises) Inc.