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corisande

"F" Company Auxiliaries

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corisande

I am starting a new thread here as it is specific information I am after - a photograph of "F" coy Auxiliaries

There is a thread here on the Cairo Gang photo that is invariably used to portray the British soldiers shot by the IRA on the morning of 21 Nov 1920

You will see in that thread that an issue of The London Illustrated News has the photos of the men shot, and they do not match the photos of the "Cairo Gang"

However email correspondence I have had with the National Library of Ireland has winkled out the fact

"The photograph is part of the Piaris Beaslai Collection, acquired in 1966 from the executors of his estate. The photograph was acquired in an envelope marked Cairo Gang "F" Coy Aux. I have not seen the London Illustrated News that you mention, but for the moment we will not be changing the catalogue record."

I think I can see what has happened, and as it is an "iconic" photo of Bloody Sunday, nobody in NLI is going to clarify the designation of the photo unless I can supply further info - they are just calling it what it is "Cairo Gang", but up to now nobody has associated "F" Coy with being another Cairo Gang

What I would like to do is gather the max amount of info on F Coy and if possible a photo. All help appreciated.

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corisande

Having spent a few hours reading on the web, I found a reference to a "well known photo " of 19 members of F Coy.

Fruitless searches on Google have failed to find it. Anyone heard of it?

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Murrough

2 Cairo Gangs would be a turn up for the books,can't help with a pic just yet but some web sources state a Capt.W.L.King commanding officer of F Co. ADRIC was aquitted by court martial of the murder of 2 prisioners Murphy and Kennedy on the 9/2/21.There may be a pic of this man somewhere.Reports of the court martial should also give other names of members of F Co.

Regards,

murrough.

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corisande

2 Cairo Gangs or only 1 - F Coy is the most likely explanation. I never have got to the bottom of who first used "Cairo Gang" and against whom.

I have been accumulating notes on King as he is one of the men whom Collins targeted on Bloody Sunday, and who escaped as he was not at home when the lads called.

Interestingly, a bit like the western front, the dead have a lot of information on them, but those who survived, virtually nothing

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The Ulsterman

Corisande, I'm not sure if it will help with your request, but my friend has a book at the printers as we speak.

"TUDOR'S TOUGHS"

A study of the

Auxiliary Division Royal Irish Constabulary

1920-1922

I had the privilage of having a sneak preview of some of the photos he had gathered for this venture, including over 100 photos, with colour photos of unit badges and backings etc.

Hopefully it will be of some help in what you have requested.

I will be getting a copy as soon as it's released, so if i can help in any way, please let me know.

Neil.

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thekraut

Re "F" Coy. I am the author who is awaiting on final proof reading of the book "The Auxiliaries - Tudor's Toughs". Hopefully it should be launched in late September. Perhaps I may be able to help re photos of "F", I have several of the Company. Virtually all ADRIC Company's had their own Int Cells and the ADRIC had a specific Intelligence Company - "Z" who reported to Crozier/Wood then onto Winter. They also worked with another undercover RIC unit who may be the famous "Cairo Gang"? I have attached a photo of a model figure that the Ulsterman made for me from photos I supplied to him. The figure is of a Sergeant attached to "F" Company, (identified by the yellow diamond patch on Balmoral) ADRIC, Dublin Castle in the 1921 uniform. If anybody is interested in a copy of the book I am taking pre-orders, the cost will be £20.00 including P&P in the UK.

post-56944-065762700 1283979347.jpg

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corisande

Good luck with the book, Michael Curran told me about it recently

Don't you think it could equally have been the Igoe Gang?

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corisande
ADRIC had a specific Intelligence Company - "Z"

So where do you think J L Hardy fitted in to the ADRIC structure. I am having difficulty in seeing where exactly he fitted in.

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thekraut

So where do you think J L Hardy fitted in to the ADRIC structure. I am having difficulty in seeing where exactly he fitted in.

Re your statement that the "Cairo Gang" could be have been the Igoe Group is possible. Hardy is a different case. I cannot find him in any ADRIC register or journal. There is no doubt that he worked with the ADRIC but being a member I question? His side kick, W L King (as both did the interviewing along with Winter) was Commanding Officer of "F" no doubt, but in November 1921 King returned to the army. His details in the ADRIC Register shows the following - TO RIC DEPOT 15/11/21 CEASES ATTACHMENT TO ADRIC. Hardy may have been in Military Intelligence attached to "F" as hisoperational effectiveness would have been curtailed due to his false leg. What better place for him - interviewing suspects. Hardy did return to the army after partition which suggests to me that he was a secondment / attachment to the ADRIC. Hardy completed two books on his time in Ireland and I have tried to track them down to no avail.

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corisande

Re Hardy & ADRIC & Basil Thomson

Sturgis' Diary records

1920 Feb 13. "Andy (Cope) tells me that Basil Thomson's man in the Castle, Capt Hardy, has tried to intimidate witnesses in the Drumcondra Affair

Thomson's appointments are more difficult to track - they did not appear in the Gazette

I have not tracked down Hardy or King's service records, though I suspect they would be a bit oblique on Ireland.

I too have failed to get hold of Hardy's books

I am left with a hole on his time in Ireland. We have had a thread on Hardy on the Forum and this is my take on him but lacking completely in who he reported to.

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thekraut

Your take on him is very good and bearing in mind what Sturgis states, to me, reinforces the view he was MI and not ADRIC.

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corisande

I am more confused than ever now on King

November 1921 King returned to the army.

Am I right in thinking

  • most ADRIC men had permanently resigned their commissions in British Army before joining ADRIC
  • King commanding a company was still a serving British officer on attachment
  • Hardy was still a serving British officer
  • what about a man like Colonel Buxton Smith, committed suicide in London in January 1922, and who had commanded C Coy ADRIC
  • putting it differently were all the company commanders and intelligence officers in ADRIC serving officers on attachment
  • how many others in ADRIC were still serving British officers

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thekraut

Re your points

1 Not all resigned their commission as some took up their commission again in WW2

2 King was on attachment and was appointed CO on arrival

3 To me, Hardy was still serving in the Army as previously stated I cannot find any record of him as an Auxiliary

4 Buxton Smith as far as I understand did not resign his commission

5 Most CO's & IO's were not on attachment although there is no record to support that (there is always the exception like King)

6 Not known

King was the ideal man to do a certain job and with his experience as a detective in the South African Police, he did it quite well. I believe the court case against him re the murder charge changed his view on Ireland. Or simply that King's 12 month contract was up and he decided that he had enough. He joined on 11/10/20 and returned 15/11/21. Although there was still IRA activity after the Truce, the ADRIC were not used to the same extent as before the Truce.

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gaelgoir

There are three photos of F company ADRIC in the Beaslai collection in the national photographic archive in Temple Bar in Dublin. Each shows the men posed on armoured cars or trucks in Dublin Castle yard. This is also where the c7 copies of the "special gang, F company" is held.

I understand the Igoe gang was comprised of country RIC men brought to Dublin to help recognise volunteers from the country in Dublin. These would have been irish while the Cairo gang were all British with an army background whether serving in the army or MI6

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gaelgoir

Further photo from Piaras Beaslai's 1926 Book taken in garden of Dublin Castle. This photo uses letters to identify the men.

3943EE9440754D20B477367B5E90353C-0000341706-0002192787-00800L-BDF4CD819C1C41088DC5658E30ED5197.jpg

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corisande

Thanks for that photo. I am back from my travels now, and back on the "job".

It looks as if it might be worth my while tracking down that 1926 book

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toofatfortakeoff

Reading the book Michael Collins Squad there appears to have been a ''Cairo Coffee Shop'' not far from St Stephen's Green (down the road from Bagot St where a lot of the shooting took place on November 20th. So confusion reigns. Certainly O F Smyth who was killed in the Carolan raid brother of Bryce came back from Egypt.

Also some of the contingent in intelligence had returned from intelligence service in Egypt which was another reason for the Cairo moniker. On the Cairo gang.com an ADRIC has been id'd (not definitely) as Leonard Appleford in that supposed photo of the Cairo gang. The only thing about that photo is that they don't look to me like regular police men, none of them look tall enough for regular RIC. Certainly Hardy is not in that photo nor is King and they don't so far match up to ADRIC members in Dublin by the looks of things.

It is possible they were a mixed group of army police Tans intelligence going out on a mission of some sort. The Black and Tans often turned out in muf

There is the Morehampton Road option which was a civilian spy base and was taken out on November 20th with the deaths of 4 people.

Incidentally William Lorraine King died in the desert in 1942 as an unattached officer (CWGC listed)

The group photo shows probably if only the photo was better at a guess Frank Garniss standing 3rd left and Cecil Morris standing 6th left.

Has the book gone to print yet?

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Murrough

have a look at this thread.

 

 

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kildaremark

I just bought a new book called Revolution A Photographic History of Revolutionary Ireland 1913-1923 by Padraig Og O Ruairc (Mercier). There are plenty of obscure photos of ADRIC, wanted men, IRA and British intelligence photos.

Mark

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corisande

Thanks Mark

I have therefore just ordered it. He is the chap who wrote "Blood on the Banner! about the War of Independence in Clare

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Stanley_C_Jenkins

I added a note about the new book that has just been published by Mercier Press entitled Revolution - A Photographic History of Revolutionary Ireland. because it contained photos of F-Company RICAD. However, the post was then moved elsewhere, to place where the reference to F Company will be totally lost. The author, Padraig O Ruairc, has assembled many hitherto-unseen photographs, including some "new" ones of the RICAD. It is hardcover, with 288 pages.

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Guest mmckenna

There is a Pathé News clip of the marriage of Major William Lorraine 'Tiny' King to Helen Sophie Gilbert in Monkstown Church (Church of Ireland) in 1920 on YouTube.

He looks like a very pleasant man, full of smiles. And I am sure he was, unless you happened to be standing in a field with him with a bucket over your head....

 

 

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