.303 Cartridges and others

[Retlaw]

Found a picture of some of my collection, now in a museum.

The two .303 on th right were special wood bulleted blanks,

made to operate the Bren and the Vickers for the film

The Longest Day.

The machine guns were fitted with disrupters

which shredded the wooden bullet on exit.

Retlaw

Edited 2 June , 2010 by Retlaw

[TonyE]

This is a bit off topic, but I would be interested in any evidence you have that the .303 blanks were made for The Longest Day. They may well have been used, but they were around from before the film was made in 1962. Also, there is a third round, headstamped "KYNOCH LEWIS" and I don't remember a Lewis gun being used in the film. They seem to date from the mid Fifties.

I will try to find the date from the Kynoch records next time I am in Birmingham.

A lot of the blanks used in the film were specially made brass coloured plastic blanks manufactured by SFM in France.

Regards

TonyE

[Retlaw]

This is a bit off topic, but I would be interested in any evidence you have that the .303 blanks were made for The Longest Day. They may well have been used, but they were around from before the film was made in 1962. Also, there is a third round, headstamped "KYNOCH LEWIS" and I don't remember a Lewis gun being used in the film. They seem to date from the mid Fifties.

I will try to find the date from the Kynoch records next time I am in Birmingham.

A lot of the blanks used in the film were specially made brass coloured plastic blanks manufactured by SFM in France.

Regards

TonyE

They were given to me by Geoff Brown the editor of Guns Review, and described as such by him. I had no reason to doubt his word on those, or any of the other cartridges he gave me. They are not plastic coloured to look like brass, and are headstamped Bren and Vickers. The two .303 on the left were given to me by an R.A.F. Armourer, he said they were removed from the breaches of machine guns on Spitfires he serviced, he said the guns had jammed on those rounds, the black band on the bullet was to denote explosive. He had seven rounds in his possesion all with multiple firing pin strikes. We extracted the bullets from 3 and found there was no propelant in the cases, the remaining 4 were the of the same weight as the 3 we examined.

Retlaw.

[the_beno]

Hi

Can you also give the names of the other bullets? I don't recognise them all

Benoit

[Retlaw]

Hi

Can you also give the names of the other bullets? I don't recognise them all

Benoit

Named some, can't remember them all would have to go to the museum.

[Retlaw]

One or two more if your interested.

Retlaw.

[the_beno]

Well, I only recognise the .303's on the left and the .30-06's on the right (and belgian mausers in the middle?)

[TonyE]

They were given to me by Geoff Brown the editor of Guns Review, and described as such by him. I had no reason to doubt his word on those, or any of the other cartridges he gave me. They are not plastic coloured to look like brass, and are headstamped Bren and Vickers. The two .303 on the left were given to me by an R.A.F. Armourer, he said they were removed from the breaches of machine guns on Spitfires he serviced, he said the guns had jammed on those rounds, the black band on the bullet was to denote explosive. He had seven rounds in his possesion all with multiple firing pin strikes. We extracted the bullets from 3 and found there was no propelant in the cases, the remaining 4 were the of the same weight as the 3 we examined.

Retlaw.

Of course there was no reason to doubt Geoff, whom I also knew in his Guns Review days. I was merely saying that even if they were used in the film, I thought they pre-dated the film by some years. I know they are not plastic as I have all three, BREN, LEWIS and VICKERS in my own collection. As I said in my post, it is the French SFM blanks that were brass coloured plastic and made for the film.

With regard to the .303 rounds you mention in your post, I very much regret your R.A.F. armourer was mis-informed on just about every count.

No British service .303 cartridge was ever identified by a coloured band at the neck. What may have confused the issue is that Observation and Explosive rounds should theoretically have a black primer annulus, although in practice the few surviving explosive rounds usually have a red or orange annulus.

Also, by the time that the Spitfire came into service no .303" explosive rounds were in use. They were mainly used towards the end of WWI (see below) but by the 1930s it was realised that the 303" bullet held insufficient charge and a better solution for the next generation of fighters was the multi-gun wing with armour piercing and incendiary ammunition. The last small batches of .303" explosive ammunition were made in 1933. Although it is difficult to tell in the picture, I suspect those round are incendiary B Mark VIz judging by the bullet shape. The B.VI tended to have a smaller meplat than the ball rounds.

To bring this thread back to WWI, Here are some of the incendiary and explosive rounds used by the RFC/RNAS and RAF.

This photo shows (L. to r.) the Brock Mark VIIK(mainly a RNAS store), the Pomeroy PSA Mark I and the Mark II.

Towards the end of the war Richard Threlfall had developed the RTS (Richard Threlfall & Son) explosive bullet and this was used in two marks, differing in the construction of the warhead.

This picture shows

RTS Mark I. Headstamp "KN 1917 VII"

RTS Mark II. Headstamp "KN 1917 VIIG"

R Mark III*. Headstamp "R^L 1931 RIII *"

Finally, a development of the RTT (Richard Threlfall & Todhunter) explosive bullet that did not reach service before the war ended. This example dates probably from late 1918/1919. It is shown in H.Jones notes which were written in 1921.

All these rounds are very rare today, and although some of these are not in the best condition, I am very pleased to have them.

Regards

TonyE

[Retlaw]

Well, I only recognise the .303's on the left and the .30-06's on the right (and belgian mausers in the middle?)

The ones on the right are .303, and those Belgian Mausers in the middle are 6.5mm Eytie.

Retlaw.

[TonyE]

Surely the 6.5mm Carcanos are Italian, not "Eytie"? If you had a lot of them would it be "One hundred and Eytie"?

Regards

TonyE