No AVL - is this the end!

[David W]

Hi all

I posted recently about a family member who had suddenly appeared who was unknown and might have served. It was suggested as I expected the answer may lie in the AVL.

However the local studies said the AVL was no longer available and someone said that was not uncommon, any ideas as to how to proceed would be much appreciated

David

[alf mcm]

Hello David,

Unfortunately, not all Absent Voters Rolls survived.

You could try the local Voters Roll for before and during the war years. These should at least show if he stayed in Rochdale or moved elsewhere. You should also check for the voters roll just after the war, to confirm he did not move. You can also try and find him in the 1911 census, to see if he moved.

If you find out from the above that he was still local then your best bet is to check the local newspapers for the war years. If you are lucky they may be indexed. If not, it will mean checking them a page at a time! You may find a reference to your relative, or perhaps a photograpg.

Regards,

Alf McM

[Nigel Marshall]

Bridging the gap between known civil and family details and possible service details is often difficult, but most of the time all it needs is one piece of information for the connection to be made.

I think the local 'papers would be your best bet, especially if he was an early enlistment. Later joiners often only got a mention if they were Killed, wounded, sick, decorated, or sometimes home on leave. Early joiners were often mentioned simply because they had enlisted. If there were other brothers, or indeed sisters, these would well worth looking for too because Frederick Winterbottom might be tagged on to any mention of them.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Peridot]

Hi David

It's not necessarily the end tho it certainly doesn't help. I'm faced with the same situation with an ASC grandfather and it becomes a case of piecing together and making deductions from whatever fragments of information may be available. In my case a member of the Forum managed to tie down the date and type of enlistment from surviving service records from numbers either side and I established an approximate date of de-mob from the number of overseas service stripes (four) and my mothers date of birth. I arrived at a departure date for France of about July 1916 and a demob in the same month approximately three years later. Postcards tell me he was in Arras towards the end of 1916/early 1917 and that he was with the Army of Occupation and in Cologne from about January 1919. He told me once he was at Passchendaele. I'm therefore looking at Units that were with the Divisions that went to Cologne and also those that went overseas from mid-June 1916 to mid August 1916. I'm waiting for an estimate from the National Archives to copy the Monthly Returns that will tell me this. I don't say this will work in every case but it's an example of the tye of avenues available depending on what information you have.

A useful book is World War 1 Army Ancestry by Norman Holding which though slanted towards the ASC can be adapted to fit other types of Unit

Hope this helps.

Peridot

[David W]

Hi David

It's not necessarily the end tho it certainly doesn't help. I'm faced with the same situation with an ASC grandfather and it becomes a case of piecing together and making deductions from whatever fragments of information may be available. In my case a member of the Forum managed to tie down the date and type of enlistment from surviving service records from numbers either side and I established an approximate date of de-mob from the number of overseas service stripes (four) and my mothers date of birth. I arrived at a departure date for France of about July 1916 and a demob in the same month approximately three years later. Postcards tell me he was in Arras towards the end of 1916/early 1917 and that he was with the Army of Occupation and in Cologne from about January 1919. He told me once he was at Passchendaele. I'm therefore looking at Units that were with the Divisions that went to Cologne and also those that went overseas from mid-June 1916 to mid August 1916. I'm waiting for an estimate from the National Archives to copy the Monthly Returns that will tell me this. I don't say this will work in every case but it's an example of the tye of avenues available depending on what information you have.

A useful book is World War 1 Army Ancestry by Norman Holding which though slanted towards the ASC can be adapted to fit other types of Unit

Hope this helps.

Peridot

[David W]

Many thanks to you all for your suggestions.

It certainly gives me some avenues to explore and perhaps draw a result from. As he was 27 at the start of the war I thought he might have been too old but that is not the case so the possibility he served exists and time to try and find out what/where!

Peridot, please forgive my ignorance can you define ASC please.

Many thanks again one and all

[Peridot]

Many thanks to you all for your suggestions.

It certainly gives me some avenues to explore and perhaps draw a result from. As he was 27 at the start of the war I thought he might have been too old but that is not the case so the possibility he served exists and time to try and find out what/where!

Peridot, please forgive my ignorance can you define ASC please.

Many thanks again one and all

Hi David

The ASC was the Army Service Corps who were basically a logistics Corps responsible for keeping the troops supplied with stores, equipment and ammunition.

Peridot

[janecavell]

Another possibility for you: if your man married, or had children born or baptised while he was serving, then the relevant birth certificates, baptism registers and/or marriage certificate should give you his occupation at the time.

Jane

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

have you tried the British Library for AVL's they hold all that have survived of County Durham so they may have yours.

regards

John

[kenf48]

another long shot

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Lancashire/R...tMethodist.html

Ken

[David W]

another long shot

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Lancashire/R...tMethodist.html

Ken

[David W]

Hi

Many thanks for the subsequent clues which may help.

I visited out local Studies Centre on Saturday to try and make a start on tracking down Frederick Winterbottom.

IN checking the local registers for the last known address I came across a complete blank in that the address was not listed in the local directories and aroound changed from dwellings to shops as they are now. I was aslo given a Roll of Honour which lists the fallen in the War Years and there is no Winterbottom listed there.

There is a possibility of course that since the 1901 Census they moved away - certainly if the house became a shop - but also away from Rochdale so I suppose I will have to buy some units on the 1911 Census and make a start there .

Incidentally, Fred had an elder brother Thomas who was born in 1873, he would have been 41 by 1914. perhaps there is an outside possibility that he served as well!

Any comments, as usual, much appreciated.

[MickLeeds]

There is a possibility of course that since the 1901 Census they moved away - certainly if the house became a shop - but also away from Rochdale so I suppose I will have to buy some units on the 1911 Census and make a start there .

Incidentally, Fred had an elder brother Thomas who was born in 1873, he would have been 41 by 1914. perhaps there is an outside possibility that he served as well!

Any comments, as usual, much appreciated.

Hello,

There are 8 Fred Winterburn's born around 1887 living in Lancashire on the 1911 census, none of them in Rochdale. (6 of them in Oldham) if you have anymore details on him, I could narrow them down.

Mick.

[MartinWills]

Mick,

I think it's Frederick Winterbottom and not Fred Winterburn ........

[MickLeeds]

Mick,

I think it's Frederick Winterbottom and not Fred Winterburn ........

Cheers, my reading skills let me down. (I should've stayed longer at school!)

I'll try again with the correct name.

Edit:

1) Head: Samuel Winterbottom (1858)

Wife: Mary A

Son: Fred Winterbottom, B 1888, Daisy Nook, Lancs - Cotton Piecer

Ashton N Lyme

2) Head: Margaret Winterbottom (1849)

Son: Fred Winterbottom, B 1888, Oldham, Lancs - Cotton Cop Packer

Oldham

3) Head: John Winterbottom (1860)

Wife: Martha Ann

Son: Fred Winterbottom B 1889, Oldham. Lancs - Grocers assistant

Oldham

4) Head: Henry Winterbottom (1852)

Wife: Jane E

Son: Fred winterbottom B 1887, Crompton, Lancs - Piecer cotton

Royton, Oldham

5) Head:Fred Winterbottom B 1888, Shaw, Lancs - Piecer Cotton Mule

Wife: Florence (married 1 year)

Shaw nr Oldham

6) Head: Martha Winterbottom (1875)

Brother: Fred Winterbottom, B 1881, Lumb, Lancs - Farmer

Lumb, Lancs

7) Head: Walter Winterbottom (1893)

Brother: Fred Winterbottom, B 1887, Barnoldswick, Yorkshire - Cotton weaver

Burnley

8) Head: Samuel Winterbottom, (1845)

Son: Fred K Winterbottom B 1885, Royton, Lancs - Joiner

Oldham

All 8 using on the census the shortened version 'Fred'

[Milner]

There is a marriage between Frederick Winterbottom and Gladys Clark in Rochdale 1935. Marriage certificate may give more information ie. Fathers name

Marriages Jun 1935 (>99%)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Winterbottom Frederick Clark Rochdale 8e 138

regards

Phil

[Milner]

David

Is this correct. You said earlier that his parents were John and Ellen, so this must be them in 1881. With Thomas, Fred(erick) wasn't born at this time obviously.

1881 census

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability

John WINTERBOTTOM Head M Male 35 Saddleworth, York, England Iron Moulder

Ellen WINTERBOTTOM Wife M Female 35 Rochdale, Lancashire, England

Esther H. WINTERBOTTOM Daur Female 12 Rochdale, Lancashire, England Scholar

James WINTERBOTTOM Son Male 9 Rochdale, Lancashire, England Scholar

Thomas WINTERBOTTOM Son Male 7 Rochdale, Lancashire, England Scholar

Margt. E. WINTERBOTTOM Daur Female 2 Rochdale, Lancashire, England

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source Information:

Dwelling No 45 School Lane

Census Place Castleton, Lancashire, England

Family History Library Film 1341982

Public Records Office Reference RG11

Piece / Folio 4105 / 71

Page Number 35

regards

Phil

[David W]

Jotsmee - Many thanks for the look up on 1911, certainly a source for further research and Oldham is no surprise as that is where the family were in the mid 1800s, well Saddleworth to be precise. Hopefully I will get chance to examine further tonight!

Milner - You are indeed spot on, that is the family in 1881 and as you say Fred was not yet born. The family for some reason do not appear in my searches on the 1891 Census but surface again in the 1901 Census, which reveals for the first time existance of Fred and the fact father John appears to be no longer around. Thomas is listed which ponders the question might he have served in 1914?

Once again many thanks to you both very much appreciated.