Please can you help with our school trip to Zonnebeke - Broodseinde?

[andyl1066]

Please forgive the amateurish question but I wonder if I could get some help for a school trip that I will be running in October. We'll be walking the route of the old railway from Zonnebeke up towards Broodseinde and then to Tyne Cot and will be going on October 4th which I think is the anniversary of the Australian attack in 1917? I wonder if anyone could direct me to sources of information about the attack (maps, war diaries, photos, first hand accounts etc) as I would like to do some preparatory work with our pupils before we go - I think it would bring it alive for them.

Any help for a teacher with not a lot of knowledge about the First World War would be hugely appreciated!

Many thanks

Andy

[frev]

Hi Andy - and welcome to the forum.

A good starting point is the Official Histories - http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/first_worl...p?levelID=67890 - scroll down to Chap XX for Broodseinde Ridge.

If you enter Broodseinde in the Collections Search at the AWM, you'll also come up with lots of photos etc - http://www.awm.gov.au/search/collections/

The various War Diaries (Infantry) can be found here - http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/war_diari....asp?levelID=91

Googling Broodseinde should also bring up some finds.

There are also many good books on Passchendaele, you should be able to find one in a library somewhere.

While you & your pupils are wandering the area - spare a thought for my Great Uncle Bill - William John Cumming was killed in action on the 4th October 1917 at Broodseinde and he may just be under your feet! (his photo can be found in the AWM Collection)

Good luck with your trip.

Cheers, Frev

[Jack Sheldon]

Andy

For a German slant on events of 4 Oct 17, take a look at my The German Army at Passchendaele (ISBN 978 1 84415 564 4 pub 2007) pp 189 - 226. That contains numerous personal accounts by surviving defenders and should help you to paint a picture of the intensity of battle at trench/pill box level. If you need any more assistance, get back to me.

Jack

[nigelcave]

You might find some useful background information in my Passchendaele: The Fight for the Village in the Battleground Europe series, though it does NOT cover the Australians in any depth at all - concentrating on the New Zealanders and the Canadians. A visit to the museum in Zonnebeke Chateau is a must (and even more useful in wet weather).

[andyl1066]

Hi Andy - and welcome to the forum.

A good starting point is the Official Histories - http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/first_worl...p?levelID=67890 - scroll down to Chap XX for Broodseinde Ridge.

If you enter Broodseinde in the Collections Search at the AWM, you'll also come up with lots of photos etc - http://www.awm.gov.au/search/collections/

The various War Diaries (Infantry) can be found here - http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/war_diari....asp?levelID=91

Googling Broodseinde should also bring up some finds.

There are also many good books on Passchendaele, you should be able to find one in a library somewhere.

While you & your pupils are wandering the area - spare a thought for my Great Uncle Bill - William John Cumming was killed in action on the 4th October 1917 at Broodseinde and he may just be under your feet! (his photo can be found in the AWM Collection)

Good luck with your trip.

Cheers, Frev

Thank you all very much indeed for your help - I'll get copies of the books that you mention and scour the AWM Collections. Are there any contemporary trench maps available online that would cover 4th-5th Oct?

Thanks again for your help, it is much appreciated

Cheers,

Andy

[stevem49]

Remember though that it was not only an Aussie attack. Broodseinde covered a largish area including Poelcapelle where Fred Greaves won a VC on 4th October. The Notts & Derby Regiment lost upwards of 100 men killed that day. The majority are commemorated at Tyne Cot.

http://www.ypressalient.co.uk/Battle%20of%20Broodseinde.htm

http://www.ypressalient.co.uk/Fred%20Greaves%20VC.htm

As Nigel mentions a visit to the Zonnebeke museum is a must and my 13 yr old Granddaughter loves going 'underground' in the museum.

SteveM

[Roger H]

Andy

Here is a trench map of the area with the trenches as at 8/9/1917 - the nearest I could get to 4/10/1917. Extract courtesy of the NA Trench Map Atlas DVD from Naval and Military Press.

Roger

[Roger H]

And another one, trenches as at same date:

Roger

[andyl1066]

And another one, trenches as at same date:

Roger

Magnificent, thank you ever so much Roger. I can clearly see the railway that I think we'll be able to walk up and I should be able to match the map to the events described in the Official History. That is a huge help, greatly appreciated.

Andy

[Roger H]

Andy

If you send me a personal message (PM) with your e-mail address, I can send you the map with a far better resolution as an attachment. You can PM me by selecting the appropriate option from the drop down menu next to my forum name.

Roger

[andyl1066]

Andy

If you send me a personal message (PM) with your e-mail address, I can send you the map with a far better resolution as an attachment. You can PM me by selecting the appropriate option from the drop down menu next to my forum name.

Roger

Sent. Many thanks Roger.

Andy

[jainvince]

Andy

I did the walk a year ago, its relatively easy and there are local information boards along the route. Walking away from Zonnebeke there is an old German bunker in a field on your right and at the top some old railway track remains near to where i believe some Australian Solders were found. As you start in Zonnebeke, you may wish to visit the Passchendaele Museum which is located in Zonnebeke Park. It has an intersting reconstruction of an undergraound bunker plus other exhibits. Well worth a visit and besides it has clean toilets and a shop. As the next available toilets are at Tyne Cot this aspect could be useful.

Bernard

[JoMH]

Andy,

This is a useful topic and I am picking up pieces of information that are interesting to me. But I find the fact that there are two threads with the same question and different answers confusing/annoying. The mods could bring them together, I imagine, if you like.

Joanna

[andyl1066]

Andy,

This is a useful topic and I am picking up pieces of information that are interesting to me. But I find the fact that there are two threads with the same question and different answers confusing/annoying. The mods could bring them together, I imagine, if you like.

Joanna

Joanna,

Very many apologies for the confusion / annoyance caused - I certainly didn't mean to break any rules on the Forum and am hugely grateful for the help I have received. I wasn't sure where to post my question - hence the different threads. I'd be more than happy to have them amalgamated if that is possible.

Sorry,

Andy

[andyl1066]

Andy

I did the walk a year ago, its relatively easy and there are local information boards along the route. Walking away from Zonnebeke there is an old German bunker in a field on your right and at the top some old railway track remains near to where i believe some Australian Solders were found. As you start in Zonnebeke, you may wish to visit the Passchendaele Museum which is located in Zonnebeke Park. It has an intersting reconstruction of an undergraound bunker plus other exhibits. Well worth a visit and besides it has clean toilets and a shop. As the next available toilets are at Tyne Cot this aspect could be useful.

Bernard

Thanks for letting me know Bernard. I'm glad that there are information boards and a bunker...and the pupils will love that fact that there is a shop!

Many thanks,

Andy

[JoMH]

Hello Andy,

I see why you started two threads now.

It's a great project that you're embarking on. How old are your pupils?

Don't forget the New Zealanders who were there!

Joanna

[andyl1066]

Hello Andy,

I see why you started two threads now.

It's a great project that you're embarking on. How old are your pupils?

Don't forget the New Zealanders who were there!

Joanna

Hi Joanna,

Our pupils are 13/14 years old and so will hopefully get a lot out of the trip. I've been bowled over by the help and kindness I've received on the forum and hope to be able to give something back by posting the educational resource that I end up producing for our pupils so that other teachers might be able to use it if appropriate. I'll also let you all know how the trip goes!

Many thanks for your help and interest!

Andy

[stevem49]

Will you be giving the group a man each to research and then to visit their grave/name on memorial?

Also I was amazed at the impact on a young lad when he found his 'own' name on the Tyne Cot memorial.

S

[KJames]

The book 'Passchendaele - unseen panoramas of the western front' by Peter Barton might be a useful resource. Although it covers a much wider timescale than you're interested in, and is probably not the sort of thing to lug around on a field trip, it does include a range of maps as well as first hand accounts and plenty of background information and photos. It also includes details and background information to some of Frank Hurley's photographs taken in the area including the one of Australian and British troops sharing the railway cutting near Tyne Cot taken on 12th October.

Ken

[andyl1066]

Thanks for the tip about the book Ken, I'll see if I can get hold of a copy.

And, yes, Steve we'll be getting each pupil to find 'themselves' and also a named soldier to find at Tyne Cot and the Menin Gate.

Thanks to everyone for their very kind help

Andy

[Mark Hone]

Stop me if you already know this but the Passchendale Memorial Museum do a 'hands-on' recreation of this very attack, and dress the pupils up in uniform, give them identities etc and then walk from the museum up to Tyne Cot. The museum is, in my opinion, much better than 'In Flanders Fields'. As you are going on the anniversary of the attack they may already be booked for this activity but give Evelyne Osaer at the museum an e-mail to check:

evelyne.osaer@zonnebeke.be

A good way of visualising the whole attack is to stop first at Dochy Farm Cemetery, which lies just on the ANZAC Corps' 4th October start line and look up the ridge to Tyne Cot. Then when you get to the Tyne Cot vistor centre look back to Dochy Farm through the excellent panoramic window which has a board indicating the key features of the 4th October attack. It gives you a wonderful idea of how far they advanced in a classic 'bite and hold' attack and what they were trying to achieve. It's also worth showing the excellent sequence on the Battle of Broodseinde from the 1980s Australian TV series 'Anzacs', which features a well-staged attack on a pillbox modelled on the Sergeant Lewis McGee VC action. I might be able to get you a copy on disk. Incidentally, contrary to what you might read in some guidebooks (or indeed may be told by some tour guides) the two Australian VCs, McGee and Jeffries who are buried at Tyne Cot, did not win their awards for capturing any of the pillboxes inside the cemetery, but that's another story.

I am one of several 'teacher contributors' to this forum who run their own school tours. I try to do a different itinerary every year (this is tour number 18), and don't always go to Ypres. We will be there this year, a few weeks later than you. Any help you need, don't hesitate to PM me,

Mark Hone

Head oF History

Bury Grammar School

[Michelle Young]

Andy

Email sent as promised.

Michelle