On Line Petition

[1690philip]

Would you get permission In North Belfast??

Wesley Wright

Quiet sure Wesley that we can do something localised but I know there will be much debate. However there is local ongoing projects and maybe they could be added.

Phil

[Beau Geste]

The way I see this is that it's a sort of safety valve. Phil's community has discovered two brave young men (yes, I know there were millions). They want to do something to show their esteem. They create a petition. Someone somewhere in the echelons of the civil service will say yes or no. What is the problem with that?

The community will feel that at least they tried. There's more comes out of people having a go at something than there is out of people who say that something can't or oughn't to be done. It might not be any sort of an award, but there may be spin-offs and benefits to the people of that community, even simply a feeling of collective pride.

Another factor is awareness-raising at the receiving end. A civil servant or politician who reads a communication or a petition knows more about the topic than she or he did beforehand.

Gwyn

I'm invariably impressed by Gwyn's ability to cut to the core of a topic and to express her opinions in such a way that they invariably highlight her deep love and concern for those who fought and suffered in The Great War.

Who can possibly argue with her suggestion that pretty much everyone will benefit from Phil's decision to pursue this matter no matter what. We might disagree with him on the grounds that what these young men did was not "extraordinary" and therefore did not deserve some special recognition, but for him (and Gwyn) that's not the point and I for one am beginning to see and accept her point.

Sorry Gwyn that it's taken so long.

Kind regards,

Harry

[Moonraker]

Phil: to repeat my question of earlier today: "what form of words of recognition [from the MoD] would please you" (and your supporters)?

Moonraker

[1690philip]

Sorry Moonraker that many replies I missed your question. To be honest any kind of acknowledgement even a statement not necessary a medal would be great if that is achievable but you need to set your sights high in life.

Phil

[cypresslodge]

I have to second everything Harry has said in his last post! I didnt really have an opinion on the issue but after reading all the posts, particularly Gwyns comments, I really believe that trying to get any type of recognition for these men - no matter how seemingly impossible - is a good thing and I wish Phil all the best.

Cheers

Sharon

[Moonraker]

Once the petition has a reasonable number of signatures how is it progressed? I've glanced at the Gopetition website and can't see what happens next. Presumably someone or other forwards it to the appropriate organisation?

What happened to the campaign to have Walter Tull awarded an MC? This was launched on the back of a TV documentary and seemed to be based on Tull being a competent officer who missed out on the allocation of a set number of decorations - and his being perceived (apparently erroneously) as the British Army's first black officer. To save distracting from Phil's thread, I suggest that any replies are posted on

this Tull thread.

Moonraker

[John_Hartley]

There is, IMO, a relevence of the Tull case to this thread.

There is no doubt that Tull undertook a brave act. It is well documented in the war diary. The assumption made by those trying to get him posthumous recognition is that because he undertook such an act, his name must have been submitted for an award. Their later speculation that this submission must have been rejected and that this was becuase Tull was black is not relevent to this thread but the first bit has similarities.

[Moonraker]

John's comment is fair enough in that it has some relevance to the current discussion, but Tull already has 15 threads on this Forum, and I suggest that Phil's is not taken over by further debate about him that may well go over familiar ground.

Moonraker

[Dragon]

Once the petition has a reasonable number of signatures how is it progressed? ... Presumably someone or other forwards it to the appropriate organisation?

My understanding is that once the petitioner has decided to close the petition, it's up to him or her to send it and the signatures to the petitionee.

Could I clarify, please, that I deliberately haven't said whether or not I think it's right to seek retrospective awards for Great War service personnel? I was arguing for Phil's or anyone else's right to try. I was also trying to say that there can be spin-offs from any campaign and they may be intangible, they may not be the outcome envisaged or aspired to, but it may be a position from which people can move forward in all sorts of ways.

I was involved - well, I organised - a nationwide campaign to have every member of the House of Commons, Welsh Assembly and Scottish Assembly written to by individuals about a specific issue. I had four weeks to do it. As it happens it was successful and we got a question asked in the HoC, a couple of EDMs and an Adjournment Debate which led to definite action. I was incredibly heartened by the benefits to the people who participated: some who thought their English was too inadequate realised they could write letters to their MPs, some gained the confidence to go to their MP's surgery, some contacted local editors and contributed to the newspaper, some worked with their MPs on press releases, and so on. By the end of it my brain felt as if it needed jet-washing but I had a tiny bit of pride that I hadn't given in to doubters who said it was impossible.

As someone who's written the occasional bit of campaign material for organisations, I think that if people want to try, then they should try. That's all. But the campaign or petition needs to be thoroughly thought through before going public.

In my opinion, a drawback to this particular campaign is the absence of specific outcome. I think that if campaigners want other bodies to say yes, then they need to make it easy for them to say yes. That includes explaining exactly what is wanted. 'Recognition' is too vague a word, I feel.

Gwyn

[Desmond7]

Quoting Dragon: "Could I clarify, please, that I deliberately haven't said whether or not I think it's right to seek retrospective awards for Great War service personnel? I was arguing for Phil's or anyone else's right to try."

I have no difficulty with someone undertaking the attempt. I do, as stated in post 2, have grave difficulty with the entire concept.

In reality this is never going to happen. And if it did, I would protest on behalf of the many brave men who went undecorated. There are many, many, many thousands of them.

I am wholly supportive of the historical research into this particular battalion and for that Phil deserves a great deal of credit. However, on this issue I cannot agree.

Des

[cypresslodge]

In reality this is never going to happen. And if it did, I would protest on behalf of the many brave men who went undecorated. There are many, many, many thousands of them

I respect peoples views and opinions on this forum but surely this is like saying if all the wrongs cant be righted then we shouldnt attempt to right just one?

Apologies Des for just quoting you when many other posters have stated a similar thing!

I just dont understand how it denigrates or detracts from other soldiers who went undecorated.

Cheers

Sharon

[Beau Geste]

Could I clarify, please, that I deliberately haven't said whether or not I think it's right to seek retrospective awards for Great War service personnel? I was arguing for Phil's or anyone else's right to try. I was also trying to say that there can be spin-offs from any campaign and they may be intangible, they may not be the outcome envisaged or aspired to, but it may be a position from which people can move forward in all sorts of ways.

Gwyn

Hello Gwyn

I hope I haven't given the impression that I misinterpreted what you said in an earlier posting. I was indeed referring to your point that immaterial of what we as individuals might think (and I personally don't feel able to support the motion for the reason I outlined in #33) Phil has every right to try and get the actions of these two soldiers recognised in some formal way.

Harry

[Desmond7]

Cypress - Appreciated ... but I, for one, see no evidence of any 'wrong' which needs to be 'righted'.

The decisions were made at the time. And there is an end to it.

Des

[1690philip]

I do respect everyones view and it`s great to hear everyones opinion in a constructive platform. I hope no one has been offended by the petition as it wasn`t meant to do that. What has been inspirational to me was to hear the praise for the work into the Battalion but many of the forum pals do great work and even more than I. I will give an update at a latter stage to see what is the next step but so far 74 sigs.

But lets input into the other thread about the Bravely of men who haven`t been recognised and let`s tell their story and keep their memory alive for the thousands and thousands other men.

Phil

[Moonraker]

... I just dont understand how it denigrates or detracts from other soldiers who went undecorated...

Sharon

I don't think that anyone is saying this, but some us are dubious about the feasibility of winning official recognition for an action that took place almost 100 years ago that was equivalent to countless other unrecognised deeds in the conflicts of the last century. I'm probably being too fanciful, but other well-meaning attempts to win recognition for a favourite unsung hero could end up with a string of petitions to the MoD, the worthiness of none of which could be proved to the satisfaction of bureaucrats. By all means commemorate the heroism locally or on websites.

By the way, respect to Phil for his courteous and patient responses to the doubters.

Moonraker

[NeilEvans]

By the way, respect to Phil for his courteous and patient responses to the doubters.

I totally agree.

Phil,

Are members of the community thinking an award might be successful? In reality it won't be, does the community know this?

Neil

[grantowi]

Are members of the community thinking an award might be successful? In reality it won't be, does the community know this?

But when the community writes its memorial to these men, they can say that they TRIED - and thats the important part

Grant

[Beau Geste]

But when the community writes its memorial to these men, they can say that they TRIED - and thats the important part

Grant

Succinctly and accurately expressed sir.

Harry

[NeilEvans]

Have any WW1 awards ever been given retrospectivley? I fear the answer in no, so why attempt to do this now?

[Heid the Ba]

This is second guessing decisions made at the time.

I would also question the integrity of the petition starter as s/he has brazenly plagiarised the LLT. By linking "their" website to the petition s/he opens themself up to their conduct being questioned. If I cannot trust one part of the website, how can I trust the part on these two soldiers? Others may be aware of the case but all I know is what is on a tainted website.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

................. but other well-meaning attempts to win recognition for a favourite unsung hero could end up with a string of petitions to the MoD, the worthiness of none of which could be proved to the satisfaction of bureaucrats. By all means commemorate the heroism locally or on websites..........

Moonraker

I think that sums it up very well.

On the one hand the best of intentions; but perhaps losing sight of what are reasonable aims and expectations.

Unfortunately, as well, with a situation like this you inevitably reach the point where there is a cost to the wider public, and if that cost is seen to be unjustified then sympathy evaporates. (An MoD officer dealing with a letter is a cost to the public - the thin end of the wedge).

Realpolitiks, I'm afraid.

Tom

[Dragon]

But when the community writes its memorial to these men, they can say that they TRIED - and thats the important part

Yes - and if it doesn't succeed, then they can blame someone else. (The MoD or the Prime Minister or a junior clerk or someone.)

I have the feeling that some have the idea that the local community comprises rather naïve people who couldn't possibly know as much about the Great War or awards protocol as the members of the Great War Forum. In my view, this becomes less about whether local people are going to be disappointed, or about presumed waste of civil servant time, and more about some people's wish to assert their expertise.

Gwyn

[Desmond7]

Categorically disagree with the last statement. I have no legal expertise in this field at all. I'm very happy to make that plain. I am simply expressing a personal view.

Des

[Dragon]

As am I; I am not pointing at individuals.

I don't personally have a view about whether anyone at all should be considered for any awards because I incline to a level structure. I am simply adding another perspective to the discussion.

[Andy Wade]

I think it's worth pointing out that a petition of any kind might have very limited value. Far better to encourage a similar number of people to write to the same person or organisation.

I've had it on very good authority that here in Bradford, at District Council level a petition with one thousand signatures is still counted as one person, but one thousand separately written letters is something entirely different (even if they're a 'form' letter but signed and sent individually). That's something that I thought was a little bit unfair but it's a simple fact. If the District Council example is typical then the petition is going to be pretty worthless. They would have trouble ignoring one thousand letters.

Having said that, maybe it would be better to try to get a book published about these men, as I think that the MOD would ignore even a thousand letters.