wiking85 Posted 30 May , 2010 Share Posted 30 May , 2010 According to Nafziger this was the OOB for the Russian 10th army on November 15th 1914. But this equals well over 20 divisions! Why would it be so bloated during the battle of Lodz without participating? Are some of these units fortress garrisons under 10th army command? 10th Army Sievers 3rd Corps 25th Infantry Division 27th Infantry Division 20th Corps 28th Infantry Division 29th Infantry Division 22nd Corps 1st Finnish Rifle Brigade 2nd Finnish Rifle Brigade 3rd Finnish Rifle Brigade 4th Finnish Rifle Brigade 26th Corps 53rd Infantry Division 56th Infantry Division 2nd Caucasian Corps Caucasian Grenadier Division 51st Infantry Division 3rd Siberian Corps 7th Siberian Infantry Division 8th Siberian Infantry Division 59th Infantry Division 68th Infantry Division 73rd Infantry Division 76th Infantry Division 77th Infantry Division 84th Infantry Division 1st Caucasian Rifle Brigade 7th Opolocheniye Infantry Brigade 8th Opolocheniye Infantry Brigade 14th Opolochenie Infantry Brigade 16th Opolochenie Infantry Brigade 17th Opolochenie Infantry Brigade 20th Opolochenie Infantry Brigade 1st Guard Cavalry Division 2nd Guard Cavalry Division 1st Cavalry Division 2nd Cavalry Division 3rd Cavalry Division 4th Cavalry Division 15th Cavalry Division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMSKaiser Posted 17 March , 2011 Share Posted 17 March , 2011 Well, i am not sure wether some of these troops are fortress garrisons, but the "Opolocheniye Infantry" are Russian third line troops. They are not accounted for in general, as were the French territorial divisions, because they were not used in combat very often. Furthermore, their fighting value as doubtful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwsleser Posted 19 April , 2011 Share Posted 19 April , 2011 Wiking Nafziger info on the 10th Army is accurate as far as it goes. It is not the complete story. Nafziger did an incredible amount of work copying orders of battle from multiple sources. Unfortunately he rarely cited the source, and more importantly here, didn’t read/translate any notes or text that would set the OB in context. This OB is from Der Weltkrieg 1914-1914 vol. 6, anlage 1 (page 464). Nafiziger’s listing has errors and he didn't translate the note. 10th Army was established on 7 August (Stone pg. 54). The army was created with newly arriving mobilized units and was initially a holding headquarters until Stavka decided what it would do with the forces. The German offensives in October and November force Stavka to commit the 10th Army. In November, 10th Army was the northern most army, covering a large part of the front (basically from Tilist to Miawa). This was a front of over 300km, and this still left a gap between 10th and 1st Armies. Nafziger did omit the 1st and 4th Ind Cavalry Brigades, and the 5th Rifle Brigade. I will state that the 4th Ind Cav Brigade is also listed under Fortress Warsaw with the note that it came from 10th Army. Der Weltkrieg (DWK) lists the XXVI Corps and the 53RD and 56RD separately. DWK doesn't always list the component divisions in the corps. In many of Nafziger's Russian OBs, he adds the divisions under the corps if not provided in the source material. He does this based on the fact that the Russian corps didn't change much during the war. I will need to check to see if the XXVI Corps did consist of the 53RD and 56 RD, or whether this is an error. The note for 10th Army states: By 25 Nov.: 6SRD to 1st Army; 1GD and 2GD Cav D . to SW Front. By end of Dec.: II Caus Corps; 1Cauc RB, one-half 59RD, one-half 68RD, one-half 76RD to 1st Army; 2CavD to 2nd Army; 25RD, 77RD, 4Ind CavB to Fortress Warsaw. So approximately 7 rifle divisions and 4 cavalry divisions were transferred by the end of the year. Also note that the main force (III, XX, XXII Corps) had seen heavy fighting since the beginning of the war and were under strength. 8 were reserve divisions and the 6 Opolcheniye brigades were good only for limited defense. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwsleser Posted 19 April , 2011 Share Posted 19 April , 2011 As I suspected, there is an error on the XXVI Corps. As I previously stated, Nafizger will fill-in lower unit data if the original source omits such data and he believes he has good information. Many of Nafziger’s Russian OB are taken from Knox, DWK, or Letzter Krieg. These sources don’t always provide lower level units. In Nafziger’s favor, the Russian corps and divisional organizations were relatively stable during the war. However, in 1914, there were many changes in corps assignments, especially in regards to the reserve corps. The reserve units lacked a prewar corps structure, and the battles of 1914 cause a mixing and changing of units to meet a rapidly developing situation. In this case, Nafziger assumed that the XXVI Corps consisted of the 53 and 56RD. I am pretty positive that when I check my sources tonight, those divisions did form that corps in 1915 until the end of the war. However, the DWK OB lists these units separately from the XXVI Corps. DWK doesn’t provide divisional numbers for army corps in the anlage, but does state that the 10th Army had 22 rifle divisions. If you count the number of divisions in Nafziger’s OB, you will be short. If you add two divisions for the XXVI Corps and the missing separate brigades, you get 22 divisional equivalents. The text in DWK doesn’t help. I can’t find any comment that links divisions to this corps. However, the maps do. The 17 November insert on Karte 21 indicates that the XXVI Corps consisted of the 57RD and the 64RD. Additionally the 7th and 8th November insert indicates that the 53RD was likely assigned to the XX Corps at this time (with the 28RD and 29RD) and the 56RD was with the III Corps (with the 25RD, 27RD, and 73RD). To support this, neither the 67RD or 64RD are listed anywhere else in DWK anlage 1. So add 57RD and 64RD to the OB under XXVI Corps, and make the 53RD and 56RD separate units. I have worked with Nafziger’s OB since the 80s. As I have indicated, there are many errors. For the last 15 years, any time I use one of his OBs, I would seek out the source material and compare. Hence my WWI Nafiziger OBs (mainly eastern front) are heavily marked up with corrections and cites. Your question caused me to look at this OB closely and make corrections. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiking85 Posted 1 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 1 May , 2011 As I suspected, there is an error on the XXVI Corps. As I previously stated, Nafizger will fill-in lower unit data if the original source omits such data and he believes he has good information. Many of Nafziger’s Russian OB are taken from Knox, DWK, or Letzter Krieg. These sources don’t always provide lower level units. In Nafziger’s favor, the Russian corps and divisional organizations were relatively stable during the war. However, in 1914, there were many changes in corps assignments, especially in regards to the reserve corps. The reserve units lacked a prewar corps structure, and the battles of 1914 cause a mixing and changing of units to meet a rapidly developing situation. In this case, Nafziger assumed that the XXVI Corps consisted of the 53 and 56RD. I am pretty positive that when I check my sources tonight, those divisions did form that corps in 1915 until the end of the war. However, the DWK OB lists these units separately from the XXVI Corps. DWK doesn’t provide divisional numbers for army corps in the anlage, but does state that the 10th Army had 22 rifle divisions. If you count the number of divisions in Nafziger’s OB, you will be short. If you add two divisions for the XXVI Corps and the missing separate brigades, you get 22 divisional equivalents. The text in DWK doesn’t help. I can’t find any comment that links divisions to this corps. However, the maps do. The 17 November insert on Karte 21 indicates that the XXVI Corps consisted of the 57RD and the 64RD. Additionally the 7th and 8th November insert indicates that the 53RD was likely assigned to the XX Corps at this time (with the 28RD and 29RD) and the 56RD was with the III Corps (with the 25RD, 27RD, and 73RD). To support this, neither the 67RD or 64RD are listed anywhere else in DWK anlage 1. So add 57RD and 64RD to the OB under XXVI Corps, and make the 53RD and 56RD separate units. I have worked with Nafziger’s OB since the 80s. As I have indicated, there are many errors. For the last 15 years, any time I use one of his OBs, I would seek out the source material and compare. Hence my WWI Nafiziger OBs (mainly eastern front) are heavily marked up with corrections and cites. Your question caused me to look at this OB closely and make corrections. Jeff Thank you very much! Its frustrating not having access to the source material to figure out why things were they way they were. Now if I only had unlimited funds and could read Russian... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted 22 November , 2011 Share Posted 22 November , 2011 According to Nafziger this was the OOB for the Russian 10th army on November 15th 1914. But this equals well over 20 divisions! Why would it be so bloated during the battle of Lodz without participating? Are some of these units fortress garrisons under 10th army command? 10th Army Sievers 3rd Corps 25th Infantry Division 27th Infantry Division 20th Corps 28th Infantry Division 29th Infantry Division 22nd Corps 1st Finnish Rifle Brigade 2nd Finnish Rifle Brigade 3rd Finnish Rifle Brigade 4th Finnish Rifle Brigade 26th Corps 53rd Infantry Division 56th Infantry Division 2nd Caucasian Corps Caucasian Grenadier Division 51st Infantry Division 3rd Siberian Corps 7th Siberian Infantry Division 8th Siberian Infantry Division 59th Infantry Division 68th Infantry Division 73rd Infantry Division 76th Infantry Division 77th Infantry Division 84th Infantry Division 1st Caucasian Rifle Brigade 7th Opolocheniye Infantry Brigade 8th Opolocheniye Infantry Brigade 14th Opolochenie Infantry Brigade 16th Opolochenie Infantry Brigade 17th Opolochenie Infantry Brigade 20th Opolochenie Infantry Brigade 1st Guard Cavalry Division 2nd Guard Cavalry Division 1st Cavalry Division 2nd Cavalry Division 3rd Cavalry Division 4th Cavalry Division 15th Cavalry Division Based on Pflug's Memoir of his 10th Army command I have compiled the following OOB for 10th Army ca. 15 Sept 1914. Pflug's Memoir mentioned only corps & cavalry divisions. I have reconstructed the corps and dividion component units from the known peacetime components. As with any reconstruction there is no guarantee that it is, in fact, correct. I am interested in obtaining constructive criticism of the OOB. 10th ARMY [1] Ordered formed Sept 7 OOB when it launched offensive 15 Sept 1914 Initially XXII & III Siberia Reinforced with: II Caucasus, I Turkestan 10th Army Commander: Gen of Infantry Pflug Chief of Staff: Army Cavalry: [2] 1st Cavalry Division Gen-Lt Romeiko-Gurko 1st EMPEROR PETER THE GREAT'S Moscow Life-Dragoon Regiment 1st General-Field Marshal Prince Menshikov's St.-Petersburg Lancer Regiment 1st His Majesty King Frederick of Denmark's Sumy Hussar Regiment 1st Generalissimus Prince Suvorov's Don Cossack Regiment 1st Horse-Artillery Battalion 4th Independent Cavalry Brigade 20th Finland Dragoon Regiment Cavalry Officer's School Regiment XXII CORPS [3] (Aug 30 at Osovets; from 9th Army) 8/2/14 9th Army 9/22/14 to 10th army 1/7/1915 to 8th army Lieutenant-General Baron von den Brink Mid-Sept in the area Sapotskin-Lipsky 1st Finland Rifle Brigade (Gen-Maj Volkoboy) 1st Finland Rifle Regiment [4] 2nd Finland Rifle Regiment 3rd Finland Rifle Regiment 4th Finland Rifle Regiment 1st Finland Rifle Artillery Battalion<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"> 2nd Finland Rifle Brigade (Gen-Maj von Notbek) 5th Finland Rifle Regiment 6th Finland Rifle Regiment 7th Finland Rifle Regiment 8th Finland Rifle Regiment 2nd Finland Rifle Artillery Battalion 3rd Finland Rifle Brigade (Gen-Maj Stelnitsky ?) 9th Finland Rifle Regiment 10th Finland Rifle Regiment 11th Finland Rifle Regiment 12th Finland Rifle Regiment 3rd Finland Rifle Artillery Battalion 4th Finland Rifle Brigade 13th Finland Rifle Regiment 14th Finland Rifle Regiment 15th Finland Rifle Regiment 16th Finland Rifle Regiment 4th Finland Rifle Artillery Battalion Corps Troops: Separate Orenburg Cossack Half-Regiment 22nd Howitzer Artillery Battalion 22nd Sapper Battalion III SIBERIA CORPS Lt Gen Radkevich Arrived before Aug 29 Mid-Sept: Both sides of the Bobr Shtabina & the surrounding area 7th Siberia Rifle Division Gen-Lt Trofimov 25th Siberia Rifle Lt Gen. Kondratenko Regiment (4 battalions) 26th Siberia Rifle Regiment 27th Siberia Rifle Regiment 28th Siberia Rifle Regiment 7th Siberia Rifle Artillery Brigade 8th Siberia Rifle Division 29th Siberia Rifle Regiment 30th Siberia Rifle Regiment 31st Siberia Rifle Regiment 32nd Siberia Rifle Regiment 8th Siberia Rifle Artillery Brigade Corps Troops: Separate Irkutsk Cossack Sotnia Separate Krasnoyarsk Cossack Sotnia 3rd Siberia Howitzer Artillery Battalion 5th Siberia Sapper Battalion 2nd Siberia Telegraph Company REINFORCEMENTS: I TURKESTAN CORPS Gen of Inf Erofeev Arr Sept 10-15 at Lomza Mid-Sept: Same area as III Sib & South at Osovets 1st Turkestan Rifle Brigade (Gen-Maj Morzhitsky) 1st Turkestan Rifle Regiment 2nd Turkestan Rifle Regiment 3rd Turkestan Rifle Regiment 4th Turkestan Rifle Regiment 1st Turkestan Rifle Artillery Battalion 2nd Turkestan Rifle Brigade (Gen-Maj Kolpikov ?) 5th Turkestan Rifle Regiment 6th Turkestan Rifle Gen. Chernyaeva Regiment 7th Rifle Regiment of Turkestan 8th Turkestan Rifle Gen. AD von Kaufman Regiment 2nd Turkestan Rifle Artillery Battalion 3rd Turkestan Rifle Brigade (Gen-Maj Suites Yablochkin) 9th Turkestan Rifle Regiment 10th Turkestan Rifle Regiment 11th Turkestan Rifle Regiment 12th Turkestan Rifle Regiment 3rd Turkestan Rifle Artillery Battalion 11th Siberia Rifle Division Gen-Lt Nekrasov ? 41st Siberia Rifle Regiment 42nd Siberia Rifle Regiment 43rd Siberia Rifle Regiment 44th Siberia Rifle Regiment 11th Siberia Rifle Artillery Brigade Corps Troops: Siberia Separate Mountain Horse-Artillery Battery Siberia Separate Howitzer Battery 1st Turkestan Sapper Battalion Turkestan Pontoon Company II CAUCASUS CORPS (8/2 to 9/22/14 it's assigned to 10th Army, then to 1st Army) Gen-Adj Mishchenko Arr Sept 10-15 at Knyshin Mid Sept In 2d line: Novy Dvor & west of Grodno Caucasus Grenadier Division Gen-Lt Shatilov 13th Life Grenadier Erivan King Michael Feodorovich Regiment 14th Grenadier Georgian HIS IMPERIAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUKE TSAREVICH ALEXIS Regiment 15th HIS IMPERIAL HIGHNESS GRAND DUKE CONSTANTINE CONSTANTINOVICH'S Tiflis Grenadier Regiment 16th HIS IMPERIAL HIGHNESS GRAND DUKE DMITRII CONSTANTINOVICH'S Mingrelia Grenadier Regiment Caucasus Grenadier Artillery Brigade 51st Infantry Division Gen-Lt Voronov 201st Poti Infantry Regiment 202nd Gori Infantry Regiment 203rd Sukhum Infantry Regiment 204th Ardahano-Mikhailovsk Infantry Regiment 51st Artillery Brigade 2nd Caucasus Rifle Brigade Gen-Maj Voropanov 5th HIS IMPERIAL HIGHNESS GRAND DUKE GEORGE MIKHAILOVICH'S Caucasus Rifle Regiment 6th Caucasus Rifle Regiment 7th Caucasus Rifle Regiment 8th Caucasus Rifle Regiment 2nd Caucasus Rifle Artillery Battalion Corps Troops: 2nd Caucasus Howitzer Artillery Battalion 2nd Caucasus Sapper Battalion Caucasus Cadre Supply-Train Battalion Source: Pflug's Memoirs on the 10th Army in September 1914 which is available here in Russian: http://www.grwar.ru/library/FlugVE/index.html?PHPSESSID=5ac479b688a77b5ae4358f964b49a4b8 With divisional and regimental level information derived from the Russian Army's peacetime organization <BR clear=all>[1] It was decided to form an army from the troops collecting between the 1st & 2d Armies. 10th Army HQ unit was assigned to command the new army. It arrived Sept 1. 10th Army was officially formed Sept 7. It then consisted of two corps (XXII at Augustow & III Siberian at Osovets) which were attacked & defeated Aug 26-27 Scheduled to be added were I Turkestan & II Caucasus, arriving Sept 10-15. 1st Cavalry Division was also added to the army. Once all its corps were assembled 10th Army went on the offensive against the Germans on Sept 15. [2] Pflug also includes a "Combined Cavalry Division Skoropadsky". According to the History of the L-G Cuirassiers, this detachment joined 10th Army on Oct 12. It was dubbed "Guards Cuirassier Division" and consisted of: Life Guards Horse Regiment (absent for GHQ protection Oct 29, 1914 to Jan 2, 1915) Life Guards Cuirassier His Majesty's Regiment Life Guards Cuirassier Her Majesty's Regiment 1st Division, Life Guards Horse Artillery [1st & 2nd L-G Horse Artillery Batteries] [3] XXII Corps began the war in Petersburg. On Aug 11 it was ordered to Warsaw with XVIII & the Guards Rifle & Cossack Brigades. These corps were to form an army for the invasion of Germany via Poznan. On Aug 30 XXII Corps was rerouted from Bialystok to Osevets because of the defeat of the 2d Army. 50th Infantry Division, which was part of the XVIII Corps in peacetime, apparently was not sent south with the corps. It later appears in Warsaw on September 28 and was assigned to the 2d Army. [4] All rifle regiments had only 2 battalions except for the Siberia Rifle Regiments which had 4 battalions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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