War Widow's Pension for Soldiers KIA

[londons]

Hi,

I am really hoping someone might be able to help me with this?

My great grandfather Pte David Martin Vincent 422457 of the 10th London Regiment was KIA in Palestine on 19th September 1918. Thanks to the kind help of pals on here I have found out a lot of information about him that was previously unknown.

However, I haven't been able to find any trace of a war widow's pension that my great grandmother might have received.

My great grandfather initially joined the 6th London Regiment in approximately 1912 and was married in 1914. He was first posted overseas in 1916 following the military service act I believe. His first overseas posting was with a Garrison Battalion in Egypt so there was some question mark surrounding his fitness in the early days of his service. He was probably reclassified fit in 1918 when he was posted to his final unit, the 10th Londons.

Would his widow have received a war pension after he was killed? If so could you tell me what value this may have been and how i might trace the records of it?

Many thanks in anticipation of any help you may be able to give.

Regards,

Lee

[Nigel Marshall]

WIDOWS AND DEPENDANTS

Pensions to the widows, children, and dependants of deceased soldiers, cannot be claimed as a right, and no pension is granted or continued to a widow or dependant who is unworthy of favour, and it is in the power of the Minister of Pensions to terminate or suspend any pension that may have been granted to such persons or to provide for its administration under such conditions as he may determine, and his decision in any case shall be final.

He may deduct from any pension or allowance the cost of any benefit which it may hereafter be decided to substitute, provided that no deduction made shall be at a greater rate than one penny for each full half-crown of the pension or allowance.

Widows' Pensions. The widow of a soldier who is killed while in the performance of Military duty, or dies as a result of wounds or injuries received, or dies of disease due to or aggravated by active service, within seven years of his removal from duty on account of such disease or injuries, may be granted a minimum pension at the following rates weekly.

s. d.

Warrant Officer, Class I . . . . ..........................................................21 3

Warrant Officer, Class II, or Non-Commissioned Officer, Class I . . . . 18 9

Non-Commissioned Officer, Class II . ..............................................17 6

Non-Commissioned Officer, Class III . .............................................16 3

Non-Commissioned Officer, Class IV . . ............................................15

Private, etc. (Class V) . . . . ............................................................13 9

The pension granted to the widow of a soldier who held

paid acting rank may be at the rate appropriate to that

rank.

Alternative Pension. Any widow pensioned as above who makes application and shows that the minimum pension, with children's allowances (if any), which she has been granted is less than one-half of any alternative pension that might have been awarded to the deceased soldier had he survived, may be granted, in lieu of a minimum pension and children's allowances, a pension which shall not exceed one-half of such deceased soldier's

alternative pension. The pension issuable to a widow is increased by 1s. 3d. a week when she reaches the age of 45.

Training. An allowance not exceeding 12s. 6d. per week may be made to a widow for a period not exceeding thirteen weeks whilst she is undergoing any course of instruction which, in the opinion of the Minister of Pensions, will be advantageous to her. Where an allowance is granted under this subsection any fees for training, for which provision is not otherwise made, may be paid.

Temporary Pension. The widow of a soldier who has died from wounds, injuries, or disease, neither attributable to Military service nor certified as aggravated by such service, may be granted a temporary pension of 15s. a week for the period of the War and for twelve months

afterwards. Any pension granted to the widow of a soldier ceases on her re-marriage, and she may then be given a gratuity equal to one year of her minimum pension. Allowances for children may be paid after re-marriage. The widow of a man who has been in receipt of a disablement pension of not less than 10s. a week, but whose death does not entitle her to a pension, may, provided she was living with the man at the time of his death; receive a pension of not more than one-half of the

deceased soldier's pension.

Gratuity. In addition to any pension and children's allowances there may be granted A gratuity not exceeding £5 to meet expenses consequent on or caused by the soldier's death, in any case when the death ol the soldier occurred on or prior to July 1, 1916. The widow of a soldier separated from him at the time of his death may, if otherwise eligible, be granted a pension equal to the amount due to her under a separation order or voluntarily paid by her husband, or both, up to a maximum of 10s. a week, and allowances for her children, if maintained by her. Allowances for children may also be granted to the separated wife of a soldier who did not contribute to her support. Any woman who has lived as his wife with a soldier, who has died in the circumstances set forth above, may, if she had been wholly or substantially dependent on that soldier and has been drawing separation allowance as for

a wife, or was eligible for such allowance, be granted a pension if and for so long as she has children of the soldier in her charge, 10s. a week and allowances for the children. Or it she has no children of the soldier, or has ceased to have them in her charge (otherwise than from their being removed from her control on account of her misconduct), 10s. a week for the period of the War and twelve months afterwards, or for twelve months after ceasing to have any child of the deceased soldier in her charge, whichever be the later date, and for any subsequent period during which, from infirmity or age, she is wholly or partly incapable of supporting herself.

Children's Allowances. A widow pensioned may be granted a further allowance at the following weekly rates for each child under the age of 16 maintained by her. s. d.

For a first child ..............5/0

For a second child. . . . . .4/2

For a third child ..............3/4

For each child after the third . .2/6

Motherless Children. The child of a soldier may be awarded a pension of 7s. a week if motherless, or is not or ceases to be under the control of its mother. In the event of two or more children, the amount will be reduced to 6s. for each of the children after the first.

Illegitimate Children. 5s. a week where an affiliation order was in force on account of a child at the time of the soldier's death, or in the case of a child of a woman who was not married to or supported by the soldier, where there is satisfactory proof that he was its father. This pension may continue in either case while the child is under the age of 16, and beyond that age under certain circumstances.

CHILDREN RE-MARRIAGE

In case of the re-marriage of a soldier's widow, the child of that soldier is not entitled to pension while the woman's present husband is engaged on munition work, or separation allowance while her husband is living away from home.

These allowances are issued in respect of the child of any soldier born before or within nine months after the soldier's discharge, but not the child of a wife or widow who was married to the soldier after the end of the War, or after his discharge, or after the receipt of the wound or injury, or after removal from duty on account of the contraction or the aggravation of the disease which caused his death.

The gratuity payable to a widow on re-marriage should be calculated on the widow's rate of pension alone. The issue of the children's pensions is not affected by the re-marriage.

Children's pensions are issuable to the date inclusive on which they attain the limit of age. They cease to be payable if the children are admitted to the Duke of York's Royal Military School, the Royal Hibernian Military School, or the Queen Victoria School ; or if, being over the age of 6 years, they are admitted to an Industrial School or to an orphanage receiving a Government contribution towards the maintenance of the inmates. Life certificates will be required only once a quarter, the blank forms being sent out with the money orders for the last payment in the second month of the quarter.

When the life certificate shows that the children are being maintained in a charitable institution, it will be ascertained whether the authorities of the institution require the pension in aid of the children's maintenance. If not required, the case will be referred to the War Office. If a child for whom a double pension has been authorized should become chargeable to the parish, the pension must be reduced to the single rate while so

chargeable. The pension of a child who becomes entitled to separation or subsistence allowance in consequence of the mother having re-married a soldier must be reduced by an amount equivalent to such allowance.

War Pensions and Allowances (1918), by JM Hogge MP & TH Garside.

I hope this helps

Cheers,

Nigel

[londons]

War Pensions and Allowances (1918)

I hope this helps

Cheers,

Nigel

Many thanks Nigel. This shows my great grandmother would have had a pension. Now i just need to know how to trace the details.

[sotonmate]

londons

Not sure of the scope of the series,but the National Archives has PIN26 which deals with WW1 pensions for ailing soldiers etc,and widows. It might be worth a look but I suspect that it is a job for Kew where they will have an index for the various categories. The really bad news (there is always some) is that only a 2% representative sample has been kept.

Sotonmate

[nevgeoran]

hi,can i add another few questions?would the widows have been paid more if they had dependant children.and what payment scale was used per child?i.e if a women had three children she would get more then a widow with two kids,but how much more?sorry lee if these questions aren't relevant to your post.

[dfaulder]

War Pensions and Allowances (1918)

I hope this helps

Cheers,

Nigel

Nigel, does it go on to give rates for Junior Commissioned Officers?

many thanks

David

[themonsstar]

This is the National Archives;

Have a read;

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...p?sLeafletID=24

[Tyrim]

My Grandfather was a Sapper and my Grandmother's pension matched the table above. Following are the details taken from the: FIRST AWARD WIDOW Widow form 3.

My Grandmother was awarded a pension for herself and three children who were then under 16 years of age. She received nothing for the three children who were older than that.

Her award was 13s 9d for herself and 15s 10d for the three children, totaling 29s 7d per week.

There appears to be another payment or possibly an extention of the first set. Squeezed in the same spaces for widow and children are 26s 8d for her and 23s 6d for the children with a total of 50s 2d

I'd be interested in knowing if anyone can tell me what that was since it doesn't seem to be a multiple of the weekly amount.

I'm also confused about the children's weekly amount.

Dividing it by three gives an unusual result-- 5s 3d & 1/3d each. I've seen farthings but were there such things as 1/3d pieces?

[dfaulder]

This is the National Archives;

Have a read;

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...p?sLeafletID=24

Thanks, added to my list for my next visit!

David

[Nigel Marshall]

This is the officers' version, from the same source: War Pensions and Allowances (1918), by JM Hogge MP & TH Garside

Memorandum for the information of Widows of Officers and Warrant Officers placed on the Pension List.

(1) Pensions not claimable as a right. Pensions and compassionate allowances to the widows and children of officers and warrant officers cannot be claimed as a right, but are awarded subject to certain conditions prescribed by the Royal Warrant.

(2) Mode of Payment. Widows’ Pensions are payable in arrear, either monthly or quarterly, at the option of the payee. Children's allowances are payable yearly, in advance, in the month of April. All inquiries as to mode of payment should be addressed to the Assistant Paymaster-General, Whitehall, S.W.

(3) Duration of Pension, etc. Pensions to widows cease on re-marriage, but may be restored on second widowhood. Compassionate Allowances to children cease on the attainment of 18 years of age in the case of boys, and of 21 in the case of girls. If, however, a child is prevented by mental or bodily infirmity from earning a

living, the allowance may be continued for a longer term. Applications in such cases should be addressed to the Secretary, War Office, Whitehall, S.W.

(4) Boys in the Royal Military Schools. In the case of boys admitted to the Duke of York's Royal Military School, the Royal Hibernian Military School, or the Queen Victoria School, the allowances cease to be issuable except for the period of holidays spent at home.

(5) Increases of Private Income to be Stated in Declarations.'Ordinary' Pensions and Compassionate Allowances also cease to be issuable whenever the private income of the family passes beyond a certain limit fixed by the Army Council. Great care should be taken to state accurately on the pension declarations the amount by which the income of the widow or children may, from time to time, be increased. (Failure to comply with this requirement may entail serious consequences.) The earnings of children (if under age) are not reckoned as private income for this purpose.

(6) Motherless Children. Children who become motherless may, under certain conditions, be granted double rates of Compassionate Allowance. Applications in such cases should be addressed by their Guardians to the Secretary, War Office, Whitehall, S.W.

(7) Commutation not Allowed. Pensions to widows and Compassionate Allowances to children cannot, under any circumstances, be commuted for a lump sum.

(8) Unworthy Conduct. A widow's pension may be suspended or cancelled by the Army Council, if the widow should prove unworthy of the award.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Nigel Marshall]

Dividing it by three gives an unusual result-- 5s 3d & 1/3d each. I've seen farthings but were there such things as 1/3d pieces?

Panic not!

1/3d is another way of expressing 1s 3d, or 1 shilling and 3 pence.

Cheers,

Nigel (a decimal baby!)

[Tyrim]

Nigel,

As a decimal man you must understand the terrible time we Yanks had trying to figure out the old money. After a while I did get the hang of it I but can still be fooled-- especially after so long. (Let's all say a prayer for the inventor of the decimal system. What a wonderful thing it is!)

What I was getting at in the post was an attempt to figure out what one child's allowance would have been. If the three received 15s 10d, dividing by three doesn't come out even. It comes to 5s 3&1/3d (three and one third pence rather than one and three). That sounds to me like a strange amount. As I said above, I've never heard of a 1/3 of a pence coin. A farthing was 1/4d as I recall

Hardly an earth shaking question but does anyone know what the actual amount would have been and why this appears to be such an odd amount?

Thanks,

Tyrim

[Tyrim]

Nigel,

Thank you for the great information on the Officer's pension system. It's interesting that the cut off age for dependent children was 18 for boys and 21 for girls. In my Grandmother's award there are three children provided for and three other children who received nothing. A 21 year old girl and an 18 year old boy were not on her application at all. However, there was an entry for a 16 year old boy. His name and birthdate were crossed out and on the line for the number of children for which she applied, the written "four" was crossed out and replaced by "three." I took that to mean that 16 was the cut off age. It's possible it could have been for some other reason but I can't imagine what that might be.

Do you have the same information pertaining to ORs? I find it hard to believe that there would be different age criteria for dependent children but it would be interesting to see what the rules for OR families were.

Thanks in advance!

Tyrim

[Nigel Marshall]

Post #2 is relevant to other ranks (Soldiers) and has been edited to contain more information. to bring it in to line with the officers' version. I hope it is clear enough?

Cheers,

Nigel

[27thBN]

Hi i read the whole thread what was the officer rates .seems to be missing. MC

[Nigel Marshall]

For some reason, Widows' Pensions rates for widows of officers are not given in the book.

Sorry,

Cheers,

Nigel

[roughdiamond]

Just as a quick addition, I found a letter in my Gt Gt Uncles service records which noted the award of a pension to her and 3 kids, interestingly it wasn't awarded till he was officially declared dead, almost 9 months after being posted missing.

So in his case the pension award was with his Service records, but no details other than that.

Sam

[jwp2007]

A copy from my great uncles records, regards, John.

[Tyrim]

Nigel,

Thank you for pointing me back to post #2. I apologize for missing it! It goes a long way toward answering my questions. But being something of a bean counter at heart I still have an inconsistancy to worry about.

The children's rates given are:

For a first child ..............5/0

For a second child. . . . . .4/2

For a third child ..............3/4

For each child after the third . .2/6

This certainly explains why my division by three (children) wasn't correct.

But-- at those rates:

Three children would be 12/6

Four children would be 15/0

On the page I hope to attach here the figure shown for three children is 15/10.

Sixteen was the cutoff date in post #2 but eighteen and twenty-one are shown in the Officers and Warrant Officers listing. I wonder if that disparity continued.

[Nigel Marshall]

I'm afraid I can't anwswer that question. The only information I have is in the book and I think I have posted all the relevant stuff.

I wonder if it is significant that the difference between the official rate and the rate you cited was 3s 4d, being that this was the increment for a third child?

Perhaps the provisions of the pension you cite were made under a different warrant to those provided in the book?

Sorry I can't be more help.

Cheers,

Nigel

[27thBN]

For some reason, Widows' Pensions rates for widows of officers are not given in the book.

Sorry,

Cheers,

Nigel

Thanks Nigel no problem ,quite an interesting thread hence the question.

MC

[Nigel Marshall]

hi,can i add another few questions?would the widows have been paid more if they had dependant children.and what payment scale was used per child?i.e if a women had three children she would get more then a widow with two kids,but how much more?sorry lee if these questions aren't relevant to your post.

I think this portion of Post #2 answers your question. I hope so.

Children's Allowances. A widow pensioned may be granted a further allowance at the following weekly rates for each child under the age of 16 maintained by her. s. d.

For a first child ..............5/0

For a second child. . . . . .4/2

For a third child ..............3/4

For each child after the third . .2/6

Cheers,

Nigel

[londons]

I think this portion of Post #2 answers your question. I hope so.

Cheers,

Nigel

Many thanks to everyone for the detailed answers and discussion.

Regards,

Lee

[Tyrim]

Good thinking, Nigel!

Allowing 3/4 rather than 2/6 for a fourth child would make it come out to the amount shown.

I know that Grandmother originally applied for four children so maybe this document was made up predicated on that. The fourth child, a sixteen year old boy, was crossed off the application and didn't make it into this count but may still have been included in the payment estimate, and with the error you suggest.

So maybe GM got away with something. Considering her situation, I think that's fine.

Thanks so much for your excellent information and logic!

Tyrim

[Retlaw]

Below is one I found today to compare with post #18.

Comparing soldiers pensions there doesn't seem to

be a standard for them, 40%, 11/1, & 1/1 for each child.

To be reviewed in 52 weeks

40% 12/6, and 1/1 for each child. To be reviewed in 26 weeks.

Depends where the man lived and which medical board

decided on his allotment, if there is supposed to be a standard

it wasn't adhered to.

Retlaw.