Amor Posted 26 May , 2010 Share Posted 26 May , 2010 I have been researching the records of all the fallen from WW1 commemorated on my home town memorial in Inverkeithing. From the some 125 names I have been able to trace the records of 105. Can anybody post details on what criteria are/were used to put names on such a memorial. I have always assumed that all names listed would be from serving members of the armed forces. Can anybody shed any light on whether other categories of people would be placed on such a memorial. For example, civilians killed as the result of enemy actions (which in the case of Inverkeithing would not be relevant as I do not believe any such action took place). Kind Regards, A Morris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted 26 May , 2010 Share Posted 26 May , 2010 I too am researching my local (Buxton, Derbyshire) memorial and, like you, have a number of names that do not appear on CWGC or SDGW records. Most memorials were erected in the early 1920s, often by local subscription and were really just down to the wishes of the local community - hence the wide variety of designs etc - even to the extent of building a 'Memorial Hall' rather than a monument. The cut off date for CWGC recognition was, I believe 31 August 1921. It is possible that local families may have attributed the death of their loved one to War service, even if not officially recognised, or occuring after the cut-off date, but before the local memorial was completed. So the name goes on but does not appear on official records. Just a few thoughts Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 26 May , 2010 Share Posted 26 May , 2010 As stated above, people died of injuries or related illness after the cut-off date. Occasionally the person hadn't died at all. Often, the link between the casualty and the location is very obscure now. Frequently, the details are incorrect or mispelt. Why not post the names of the remaining 20 here? Fresh eyes and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 May , 2010 Share Posted 26 May , 2010 I have also found that some men were married to local girls. Another man was a postman in the town for 3 or 4 months in 1914, so won't even be on the 1911 census. I tracked him down with the help of other forum members, various clues, and all the different databases. As IPT says, post them, I'm sure pals will be able to help. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 The "Rules" are what you make. The point about War Memorials and Rolls of Honour for any specific location is just that. They should have a connection to that place, having lived, worked, had relatives there or had been part of the community in some way, even if "Lords of the Manor" who only had a "place in the country". If they died in the service of their Country, or were killed as some result of enemy action, then they should be remembered. The CWGC generally accepted time period is generally used, but some include returning servicemen or those dying outside the CWGC period. It gets a bit tougher if you have munitions workers, or women killed while doing jobs that men would have done, but what I refer to above is how I would view candidates for inclusion in a Roll of Honour or War Memorial. For Inverkeithing in WW1, there are 57 "hits" using Geoff's Search Engine, the list is attached should you wish to cross reference with those you already have. Inverkeithing_WW1_RoH_CWGC.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Lund Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 If you can find the date the memorial was inaugurated then you will at least know that the people named on it died before that date. It may be later than the CWGC register’s cut off date, which could explain why they are not named on the CWGC register. Another reason for not being named on the register could be that they were discharged and then died, but were not considered to have died from war causes; Holmfirth memorials have at least four men in that category, and one of them died in Australia. He had lived there since around 1900. One or two may have been missed from the register at the time; Holmfirth had one man who died in Ireland in 1919 and who was not included until 2007 when I stumbled onto it. Also not on the register are merchant seamen who died from causes other than enemy action and men killed in the American army; Holmfirth has one of each. You can probably add to them a few whose names or details have been wrongly recorded and therefore difficult to identify on the register, and, unfortunately, a few who will probably remain mysteries for ever. I also would suggest putting the names on to the Forum. Someone may already have some of the information you are looking for from other research. Good luck with it. Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amor Posted 27 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2010 Many thanks for the replies, especially Kevin as your list found me 2 more names. For those who may be able to help, here are the names of the men that I have been unable to locate (apologies for the formatting): ANDERSON JAMES A. BINNING JAMES BORTHWICK JAMES F. BORTHWICK GEORGE BROWN DAVID BRYANT ARTHUR E. BURNETT CHARLES CAMPBELL JOHN CHARLTON JOHN CRAWFORD COOPER DONALDSON WILLIAM GALLIE DAVID GRANT DONALD HORNE CECIL KAY WILLIAM H. LAWRIE JAMES M. MACNAMARA DAVID MCGOVERN JAMES MCKAY ALEX MCKAY ANDREW MCLEAN ALEXANDER MORRISON ROBERT NICOLSON ALEXANDER PETRIE JOHN PRYDE WILLIAM ROBERTSON ANDREW SMITH FRANCIS THORNTON ROBERT THORNTON WILLIAM Many Thx, A Morris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 There are 16 pages of service record for 049078 David Gallie ASC. 6 High St Inverkeithing. Married to Mary Ann. Haven't found him on CWGC. He may have died after the CWGC cut off point. Worth having a look for his death cert HERE Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 6716/7581/6038/267969 James Binning 1/6th Black Watch, Hillend Inverkeithing. 9 pages of service history in pension records.SWB gunshot wound chest Another worth checking in Scotlands people, and Ancestry Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 1534 James Anderson ASC, Oakley 4 pages Service record. If you don't subscribe to Ancestry, it might well be worth doing. If you have it, go to service records, then pension records. In the ' keyword(s) ' section, input Inverkeithing, then Dunfermline, Oakley etc etc, and you will find quite a few. Then check death certs on Scotlands People. Good luck Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred W Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 Have you searched the local paper for the period say 1919-1921 These men might have died at home as a result of injuries sustained in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidhughhill Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 I have a question for you . I have a Memorial plaque to GEORGE CHISHOLM IRVINE enlisted in Inverkeithing . His real name was John Nicholson and he was born in Edinburgh . He gave his address as Clark's Huts Invekeithing . Do you know where they were ? Davie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amor Posted 27 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2010 6716/7581/6038/267969 James Binning 1/6th Black Watch, Hillend Inverkeithing. 9 pages of service history in pension records.SWB gunshot wound chest Another worth checking in Scotlands people, and Ancestry Cheers Mike Mike, Many thx for your help I have a subscription to Ancestor and managed to find James Short Service Attestation - which I find by searching the pensions record archive - which I do not really understand? Can you tell me where you find information about how he died from gunshot wounds? Also what is SWB? Regards, Alex I have a question for you . I have a Memorial plaque to GEORGE CHISHOLM IRVINE enlisted in Inverkeithing . His real name was John Nicholson and he was born in Edinburgh . He gave his address as Clark's Huts Invekeithing . Do you know where they were ? Davie Davie, Although I was brought-up in Inverkeithing, this name does not ring any bells. I now live in the Netherlands but let me check with some relatives at home to see if they know. Will Take 1 or 2 days. Regards, A Morris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 " Can you tell me where you find information about how he died from gunshot wounds? " Hi Alex. It doesn't say died from the the GSW, but that " he was shot in the chest ( penetrating wound ) " I just had a quick look and think he was discharged. I can't find him on CWGC using Geoff's Wonderful Search Engine ( Edited 22:20 ) Perhaps he died sometime after the war ended. I will have another look, perhaps others who know more than I ( there are many here ) will be able to help further. Also what is SWB? Check HERE Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 6 more, including A McKay, also James LaUrie.... 001 CRICHTON R 126483 50TH BN 11/05/1917 CANADIAN INFANTRY (ALBERTA REGIMENT) 002 MCKAY A 802140 21ST BN 15/08/1917 CANADIAN INFANTRY (EASTERN ONTARIO REGIMENT) 003 SWANN PR - 20TH BN 08/08/1918 CANADIAN INFANTRY (CENTRAL ONTARIO REGIMENT) 004 WYKES F 457912 60TH BN 21/04/1916 CANADIAN INFANTRY 001 LAURIE J 8/3311 2ND BN 24/03/1917 OTAGO REGIMENT, N.Z.E.F. 001 BIRNIE J 7619 12TH REGT 19/06/1916 SOUTH AFRICAN INFANTRY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 Hi Alex, maybe someone else should look at this. I can't find him on CWGC and.... Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 Hi Alex, maybe someone else should look at this. I can't find him on CWGC and.... Cheers Mike Mike His death was not cause of discharge related / due to the GSW. Influenza and pneumonia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 28 May , 2010 Share Posted 28 May , 2010 Thanks Jim. I didn't see the flu reference. The handwriting in a lot of these records is pretty poor. The leve of detail in this record is excellent though, don't you think? So if he had caught the flu and died, before discharge, he would have been commemorated on CWGC.? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 28 May , 2010 Share Posted 28 May , 2010 Mike That detail came from his Death Certificate which I checked as he was a potential CWGC non comm. Had the DC shown the cause of death as linked to the cause of discharge( GSW Chest) he would have qualified as a war death and for the CWGC Roll. Had he been serving at his death the cause of death is not relevant for CWGC commemoration. There is no link at all between CWGC listing and names on war memorials as suggested above. They only became involved with Home deaths in 1920. By then many of our memorials in Scotland were in place. Thoughts on local war memorials began in many parishes following the very high losses of 1916 and some were ready for Armistice Day 1919. A local War Memorial Commitee dealt with this usually and their criteria was used. These varied from parish to parish. The text on the memorial often assists here. There are many reasons why some are not on a memorial and today appear to be missed off. This is seldom the case and those who dealt with this c. 1920 were best placed to decide. Some relatives did not want the name added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 28 May , 2010 Share Posted 28 May , 2010 Thanks again Jim, very useful information. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amor Posted 29 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2010 Many thx for all the replies Regards, A Morris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amor Posted 31 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2010 I have a question for you . I have a Memorial plaque to GEORGE CHISHOLM IRVINE enlisted in Inverkeithing . His real name was John Nicholson and he was born in Edinburgh . He gave his address as Clark's Huts Invekeithing . Do you know where they were ? Davie Davie, Sorry but none of my family at home recognise the name. I found some records of George in ancestery.co.uk which I can send you if you are interested. Maybe you can subscrobe at the below link and ask. It is a website for Inverkeithing: http://www.s1inverkeithing.com/ Let me know if you find out. Regards, Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 31 May , 2010 Share Posted 31 May , 2010 It would be worth posting here, at the The Scottish War Memorials Project Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amor Posted 22 July , 2011 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2011 I have now found records for 163 men who lived, where born or enlisted in Inverkeithing and made the ultimate sacrifice in the war. I am still trying to find any details for below men who have some connection with Inverkeithing, so would appreciate any information members may be able to help with. ANDERSON JAMES A. BINNING JAMES BORTHWICK JAMES F. BORTHWICK GEORGE BROWN DAVID BRYANT ARTHUR E. BURNETT CHARLES CHARLTON JOHN CRAWFORD COOPER DONALDSON WILLIAM GRANT DONALD HORNE CECIL KAY WILLIAM H. LAWRIE JAMES M. MACNAMARA DAVID MCGOVERN JAMES PETRIE JOHN PRYDE WILLIAM SMITH FRANCIS THORNTON ROBERT THORNTON WILLIAM Rgds, Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 22 July , 2011 Share Posted 22 July , 2011 Alex, Cannot help you, But can still hear the steam engine, with a banker, pulling my heavy train,from Aberdeen to Edinburgh, through Inverkeithing, up to the Bridge. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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