Argyll & Sutherland Highlander

[janecavell]

From CWGC, 2nd Lieut George Clark BOW, 7th Bn Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (attached Machine Gun Corps), died 2 March 1917 and is commemorated on the Basra Memorial. He is also remembered on his parents' memorial in Kilsyth cemetery; the inscription there says he 'died in action in Mesopotamia'.

Is there any way of verifying or refuting the rather macabre family story that he was crucified by the Turks?

Thanks

[kenf48]

The crucified Soldier is a common WW1 myth if you search the forum there are a number of threads on the topic. Including one from Dundee (maybe a presbyterian horror ) Another example is here

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...ucified+soldier

As Lieut Bow is recorded on a memorial it means he has no known grave - so no surviving witnesses so I think on the balance of probability highly unlikely As an officer his death is probably recorded in the war diary, which will detail that day's action (if available) you will need to search the national archives although I've always found the regimental museum at Stirling very helpful.

It may be available here but haven't looked

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=145000

Incidentally I believe on that day the Turks were retreating to Baghdad which fell a week or so after this man was killed so I suggest highly unlikely they had time to stop and crucify anyone. His most likely cause of death was shellfire.

Ken

like your avatar!

[janecavell]

Thanks for your advice, Ken. I was pretty sceptical about the story anyway, knowing how unreliable family stories can be. Those who never knew their loved ones' fate would have been desperate for any news, and perhaps more easily misled by rumours/propaganda.

I shall seek out the war diaries next time I'm at Kew in the hope that I can find out what really happened to George.

Jane

[Malcolm]

Officers Died in the Great War gives killed in action.

Aye

Malcolm

[roughdiamond]

Jane

I have a copy of of a book detailing the 7th A&SH's Service during WW1, It has many photo's of the Officers who served with the Bn, including those who had left to serve elsewhere, I'm at work at the moment so called my Wife to check the book to see if his photo is amongst them, but I'm afraid it's not.

Something to bear in mind is that the 7th Bn served only in France, so if you're looking for details of his death it won't be in the 7th Bn's War Diary, it'd have to be the MGC Unit he was serving with at the time of his death.

One last thing, my interest in the 7th is through my Granny's Brother named in my signature below, he was also from Kilsyth BTW, I contacted the Regimental Museum at Stirling Castle and they sent me a copy of the newspaper cutting recording his death which including a photo, so it's worth contacting them to see if they have anything, the link's below.

http://www.argylls.co.uk/museum.htm

All the best

Sam

[janecavell]

Thank you Malcolm and Sam (and Sam's wife!) for those look-ups. My parents have a photo of George in uniform, but it is behind glass and I haven't yet got round to trying to scan or photograph it.

Jane

P.S. thanks Sam for that useful tip on the 7th Bn. That has saved me barking up the wrong tree looking at their war diaries. I'll concentrate on MGC as you suggest.

[roughdiamond]

Hi Jane

I was N/S last night but I've now had time to look at the book myself, it was written shortly after the War by Major AD Morrisson who'd served with the 7th throughout the War. Within the book is a list described by Morrisson as:

"The following is a complete roll of Officers who were on Active service with the 7th A&SH."

n.b. the underlined, bold words are by me to highlight their importance.

I'm afraid 2Lt George Clark Bow is not listed amongst those Officers, I therefore have to deduce that he was Commissioned into the 7th A&SH but prior to joining them on active service he was transferred to the MGC (in the UK) then posted to Mesopotamia, another possibility is that there was an error by the family when they sent his details to the CWGC, he could have been originally with the 5th Bn A&SH who did serve in the Middle East, this Bn was described as a "Renfrewshire Bn", but that was it's peacetime designation as a Territorial Force Bn, just as the 7th was designated "Stirlingshire". Officers would be moved between Bn's as required.

Have you downloaded his Medal Card yet? on the National Archives there's no Bn designation against his name on the catalogue entry, just "Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders attached Machine Gun Corps", he's also listed as 2Lt then Lt, so we only have the family's word he was 7th Bn, unless the Medal Card itself states differently.

One other thing I noticed was that his Death is not recorded on Scotlands People under "Service Returns" this is normal for Scottish Servicemen who died in WW1, it maybe to do with him not being with a Scottish unit when he died, but there is a Gunner Andrew Bow of the Royal Artillery who died the same year, the other 2 options are Officers were not listed on Service returns or he was not classed as Scottish, but he was born in Larbert near Falkirk in 1990 by what I can see, so it maybe because of the 1st option of these 2?

A bit long winded with if's and but's I know, but I can only give you the facts incase I point you in the wrong direction.

Let me know by PM if you get anything from the museum if you don't mind as you've peaked my curiosity?

Sam

[kenf48]

Don't let him know by PM put it on here - we're all interested!

Seriously not a campaign I know much about but General Maude's dispatch is reproduced here

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/baghdad_maude.htm

You will see on the day he died the machine gunnners were supporting the crossing of the Diala River - so crucifixion is getting even less likely especially as the 'ground was flat and devoid of cover'!

Lt Bow was probably with them throughout the campaign until he was killed. Now we just have to find his unit

Ken

[kenf48]

LLT to the rescue as usual!

Only one Division in Mesopotamia (the 13th) with a Machine Gun Company in each brigade (the A & SH were never involved so guessing he volunteered when the MGC formed - maybe even promoted and posted/attached out). Anyway that narrows it down to three! 38th/39th/40th MGC except... the 2nd Bn Black Watch were there as part of an Indian Divisionso maybe not so straightforward

for free ebook - with a highland regt in Mesopotamia

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/22103

Ken

[kenf48]

Just looked at his mic which shows entered theatre "Mespot 17/11/16" (which is quite unusual to have the date) I note LLT has MGC joining 13 Div in October 1916

It also shows him as 'Missing' then Dec'd 25/3/17

His mother's address is on the back Mrs W.R. Bow Westfield Cramond Edinburgh

He is shown as 'attd MGC' and appears to be on the Argylls rolls

Soldiers died in Great War also shows date of death as 25/3/17 Killed in Action

and also has the note '[Territorial] (7 A & S)

Ken

[janecavell]

Ken and Sam

Thank you so much for all the digging you've been doing on my behalf. It is really kind of you to go to all the trouble. When I saw from the Long, Long Trail how many MGC units there were, I thought it would be an impossible task. But you've managed to make it seem possible. In fact I'm a bit overwhelmed with all the new information and will have to go away and digest it for a while!

In the meantime I've found that Kilsyth Local Studies Library has the Kilsyth Chronicle for the period in question. Knowing how much information there can be in local press reports, I'm hoping that might be a fruitful avenue of research. I will keep you posted on how I get on with that, and with the query to the museum.

No, I hadn't seen the MIC before, Sam, but Ken has now provided the details (thanks Ken!). I hope to have a session on Ancestry tomorrow so should be able to download it then. One query, Ken: as his mother's details are on the MIC, does that mean she applied for his medals?

Sam, the Larbert connection is the right one. With George being born in Scotland and both his parents too (William Rankin Bow and Jane Hamilton Park) I guess we can discount one possible reason for his absence from the Service Returns on Scotland's People.

Thank you again for giving me so many new leads

Jane

[Verrico2009]

Hi Jane,

You probably know this, but can't see it's mentioned: there's a second card under G C Bow (Name: [Lt] G C Bow, Regiment or Corps: Arg & Suth'd Highrs, Machine Gun Corps: sounds like him) giving a London Gazette (15.8.17) reference for an MID. This is the link: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=Vi...=&pid=61313

I note that's after the date he died, in which case if it is your man might it refer to the action in which he was killed?

Found the LG reference but it's not very enlightening: http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/302...upplements/8335, though the front cover does mention Mesopotamia: http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/302...upplements/8327.

[kenf48]

The mother's address on the mic is probably the address where the medals were sent.

This topic is getting even more intriguing and interesting.

The LG reference lists the home regiments of all the MGC officers and I see there is a Capt. H. R. Lees was also in the Argylls.

I wonder if he was another of Sam's 7th Bn men?

(incidentally,my interest is the 14th Bn but I'd really like to know more about these men from the regiment and how they ended up in Mesopatamia in the MGC)

Ken

[kenf48]

Hi again,

If we accept the CWGC, SDGW and his mic his date of death was more likely to have been 25 March 1917 (and not 2 March as in original post) If so, this probably means he was serving with 133rd Coy MGC who had one officer killed and one missing (Lieut Bow? as on mic) and 34 (?) other ranks killed, (? because I only found 11 but like Lieut Bow they may be listed under their original regiment rather than MGC I think the figure came from the diary).

One of those killed was 37382 Joseph Herberts Sergeant.

See http://graptolite.eu/Herberts%20html/f40.htm

The author has drawn on the war diary of 133 Coy so I guess that's where you go next (maybe the writer has the diary?)

There are some fantastic pictures on the site it's probably too small but is Lieut Bow in the group photo? That really would clinch it.

I'm guessing his mid was for an earlier action, or maybe his conduct throughout the campaign.

Let us know how you get on.

Ken

[janecavell]

If we accept the CWGC, SDGW and his mic his date of death was more likely to have been 25 March 1917 (and not 2 March as in original post)

Oops! I can't believe I didn't even manage to copy the details correctly from CWGC or notice my mistake earlier. Sorry to have misled you all. Most embarrassing, especially when I have also been writing elsewhere on the forum about trying to get facts right. I blame it on my laptop: too much fluff, crumbs etc. under its keys so a lot of them don't work very well any more!

Well done for spotting the error, Ken, and for perservering on the track of Lt Bow despite my red herring. The site about Joseph Herberts is a great find and I'll certainly get in touch with the author about the war diary and to see if I can get a higher-res version of the group photo. I've also contacted the Argyll & Sutherland Museum and am awaiting a response.

Will keep you posted

Jane

[janecavell]

Here (I hope, as it's my first attempt at uploading a photo to the forum) is a photo of George Clark Bow probably late 1890s with his two older siblings Robert and Marion (May). It's a rather poignant picture for me, knowing what is in store for them in the future: not only did George die young, but his brother ended up in an asylum and their sister May chose never to have children, fearing that Robert's condition was hereditary. For me it symbolises that lost generation.

Jane

[roughdiamond]

I see there is a Capt. H. R. Lees was also in the Argylls. I wonder if he was another of Sam's 7th Bn men?

Afraid he's not on the 7th list mate.

[janecavell]

Just to update all those who advised me on my search for the truth about George Clark Bow's death:

I've had an e-mail from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders' regimental museum to say 'George does not appear in the 7th battalion war diary at all so I presume his attachment to the Machine Gun Corps probably stared shortly after his commission.' I also have a new lead about a newspaper cutting in the Falkirk Herald dated 20/4/1918 and found in 'a listing of Argylls newspaper reports held by Falkirk Library.' As this is quite some time after George's death, it will be interesting to see what it is about.

Thanks all again for your help

Jane

[Guest]

On 5/26/2010 at 12:45, kenf48 said:

The mother's address on the mic is probably the address where the medals were sent.

This topic is getting even more intriguing and interesting.

The LG reference lists the home regiments of all the MGC officers and I see there is a Capt. H. R. Lees was also in the Argylls.

I wonder if he was another of Sam's 7th Bn men?

(incidentally,my interest is the 14th Bn but I'd really like to know more about these men from the regiment and how they ended up in Mesopatamia in the MGC)

Ken

H.R.Lees was 7th battalion reserve D Company January 1915

[david murdoch]

On ‎24‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 21:09, airthrey1966 said:

H.R.Lees was 7th battalion reserve D Company January 1915

Harry Rankine Lees is in this photo. Born 18/5/1887 Maryhill - died Edinburgh (Haymarket) 1975 age 88. Ended war as a Major in or attached to MGC. His MIC and roll is A&SH. He was commissioned October 1914 and MID 15/8/1917 (as  Captain A&SH). Newspaper notes "General Maude's latest dispatch" confirming he was also in Mesopotamia at this time. Scotsman of 13/8/1917 mentions him as being seconded for duty with MGC. MIC states theatre served Mespot. Noting his MID date is same as for George Clark Bow in Mesopotamia - possibly with same unit. Bow was seconded to MGC 29/5/1916.

Edited 26 December , 2017 by david murdoch
added additional information.