David and Charles Duncan, Royal Scots.

[advsmt]

Hi,

after some help and direction. My grandfather and his 2 brother fought in WWI. Thomas with the Fife & Forfar - KIA. Charles and my grandfather, David, with the Royal Scots.

Starting with Charles Duncan. He died 20th Sep 1917 and was buried at Perth Cemetery (China Wall). He was a L/Cpl, Ser.No. 14922 and was with 12 Btl according to his Medal Card. Awarded Victory, British and 15 Star. Also stated embarked for France 11.5.15.

What I would like to know is;

Would he have been in France/Belgium the whole time?

Would he have died at Frezenberg in Reynolds VC action - if so C or D Company?

David Duncan survived and according to his Medal Card moved to the Machine Gun Corps from the Royal Scots. Mentioned in Dispatches as a Sgt. His RS Ser.No. was 14919 - 3 diffirent from his brother.

What I would like to know is;

Would they have both been assigned to the same Btl on joining up? (David also embarked 11.5.15)

Any way of finding when he transferred to the MGC? (His Medal Card awards are on Rolls starting MGC)

That is the sum of my information. Anything known or how to proceed would be fantastic.

Thanks

Bryan

[eltoro1960]

Hi , I thought this rung a bell

Your G Uncle Charles was indeed killed in action when Harry Reynolds won his VC, on my website I have a WW1 notebook written by a Lance Corporal 15683 David Stewart, he mentions your Great Uncle but for the life of me I can't find the reference just now, you might want to have a look yourself. He also mentions 14922 Charles Cairns but I think he got Charles Cairns and Charles Duncan's numbers transposed, if that makes sense.

Charles Army Pay book will is held in the NAS in Edinburgh the reference is

Reference SC70/8/630/4

Title Will of 14922 Lance Corporal Charles Duncan, 12th Bn., Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment), Cause of death: Killed in action, Belgium, Theatre: France and Flanders, 20 Sep 1917

He may have had a premonition of his death as the will was only filled in the fortnight before, even though he had seen over two years of action.

Notebook it's 137 pages long !

I have taken part in a couple of documentaries featuring the 12th Royal Scots and you can find more on my website.

Hope this assists , I will have a rake for more.

John

[high wood]

This rings a bell with me too.

Montrose, Arbroath and Brechin Review, October 12th 1917. Brechin Casualties. Death has made the first claim on a Brechin family. The youngest of four soldier sons falling in action. Lance Corporal Charles Duncan, aged 20, Royal Scots, son of Mr James and Mrs Agnes May Duncan, The Banks, Mayfield, Brechin, was killed on 20th September. Charles was a postman when he joined in September 1914. He was in the Lewis gun section of the Royal Scots.

[high wood]

Taken about 10 years ago and a bit over exposed.

[advsmt]

Taken about 10 years ago and a bit over exposed.

Wow,

thank you very much for the information. This is really exciting news for me. I do think that there was a third brother - George - I believe, and he survived. I will check out the note book!

As to David Duncan. Will I be able to get his pay book, or do they only deceased?

Bryan

[eltoro1960]

You will only be able get a digital copy of the paybook pages, there was a proforma will at the back of your paybook, men were encouraged to fill it in. Whilst David might have filled his will out , as he survived it would not be kept.

John

[eltoro1960]

Found the entry, page 134, he is listed as a member of 12 Platoon, a good few of these men are from Forfarshire.

John

[advsmt]

Found the entry, page 134, he is listed as a member of 12 Platoon, a good few of these men are from Forfarshire.

John

John,

many thanks - what a great eye you have! I looked for ages and could not find his name.

I have emailed NAS to see if I can get a copy of his will.

Is there anything else I can do to try and find out more of my grandfathers war record. He obviously embarked to France on the same day as Charles, and with a Ser. No only 3 away from Charles is it safe to assume he was also in the 12 Btl? Also I don't know when he moved to the MGC.

The 4th brother was James Duncan (he also survived the war) but I have no details on his war record at all. I have a Cameron Highlanders badge which I got from my grandfather - maybe that was his?

Maybe I should try the Montrose, Arbroath & Brechin Review for Thomas Duncans' death to see if it mentions other brothers.

Thank you again.

[advsmt]

Hi it's been a while since I added to this thread. I have found the odd piece of information and a large photo of David Duncan - though he is in uniform it is a head shot. Also got his bi-metallic RS cap badge, I already had his MGC. As he has a low MGC number I am assuming that he probably never got the all brass economy cap badge which was issued in 1916? I am also awaiting photos from my cousin. He got his medals and photo collection, hoping that has some RS stuff. My main question is does anyone have experience of getting buyer info from ebay? I found that one of his medals was sold about 4 years ago - this medal had been stolen from from cousin during a break-into his house. I would like to contact the buying to see if he would sell it.

Bryan

[Guest margaretjeannie]

Hi Bryan

I believe we have a common great-grandfather. My Grandfather, James Duncan is the brother of Dave, Charlie and Tom. George the eldest did survive the war but I have no information about his war record.

James Duncan joined the 21st Scotish horse. He enlisted in Dunkeld in January 1915. He also served in the 13th Royal Highlanders in the Black Watch. At one point he was at the St Laurance Camp at the Tigne hospital in Malta.

In my grandfather's "little black book" he has under Charles's name; C. Coy, 12th Batt, Royal Scots . Thomas was in B Coy, 14th Black Watch, Royal Horse.

Margaret

[Derek Black]

This rings a bell with me too.

Montrose, Arbroath and Brechin Review, October 12th 1917. Brechin Casualties. Death has made the first claim on a Brechin family. The youngest of four soldier sons falling in action. Lance Corporal Charles Duncan, aged 20, Royal Scots, son of Mr James and Mrs Agnes May Duncan, The Banks, Mayfield, Brechin, was killed on 20th September. Charles was a postman when he joined in September 1914. He was in the Lewis gun section of the Royal Scots.

The same article features in the 5th of October Dundee Courier, but with a photograph.

Derek.

[advsmt]

Time for an update and more help. Thanks to margaretjeannie above I have some pictures and some problems to sort out. Firstly we have 5 Duncan brothers; James 1st Scottish Horse - no problem with him, great photos in unifrom. Next is David from above Pte. 12th Royal Scots Ser.No 14919 & Sgt. MGC Ser.No. 18360 no service record but MIC and I can recognise him on the trio photo, far right.

Next is Charles Duncan L/Cpl 12th Royal Scots Ser.No. 14922 (only 3 numbers away from David) KIA Sep 1917, no service record but MIC. Next is Thomas Pte. 14th (F&F) Blck Watch Ser.No. S/16513 KIA Sep 1918. Lastly George but nothing on him other than family say he served.

Our problem is apart from David we don't know who is who? So we were wondering if dates and uniforms could help?

The first picture in dress uniform, looks like Black Watch - no dicing on glengarry, and when I looked in detail I think it looks like a 3 line shoulder title - T 5 RH. maybe wishful thinking but that is the local unit to Brechin. Can the uniform be dated? Our problem is we are sure it is one of the brothers but with no service records? Going to the third photo, again Black watch but war-time? Bright new lanyard on call up?

Third picture is interesting. The man on the right is David for certain. All three are wearing diced glengarries - Royal Scots? David and the one sitting could have RS cap badges but the one on the left, his badge looks bigger? The two on the right have regimental belts? Anything to date them?

Next is dates that I have;

I am reliably informed that Thomas' service number puts him at an enlistment of Jul 16. Charles and David both embarked for France May 15! If Charles and David were back on leave (at the same time?) surely they would have division/proficiency, etc insignia? David transferred to the MGC in 16, I think? I know Arbroath papers carried muster rolls but I have no access to Brechin papers. So can anyone cast any light?

Sorry for the long winded post.

thanks

Bryan

[rolt968]

Hello Bryan

I don't know when I will next get a chance to look at the back copies of the Brechin Advertiser. Soon I hope. I will look out for the Duncan brothers. The Brechin Advertiser did a regular feature with pictures on multiple brothers serving. There might be one on the Duncans.

R.

[advsmt]

Rolt968 thank you. Are they held at the county archives, Forfar? Also are they easily accessible, because I may be tempted to take the trip north myself in the summer. But thank you for the kind offer. Charles' death was in the paper above and there was a low res photo of him in another but it was difficult to make out. If there was a feature then that might be our best hope.

Thanks again

Bryan

[rolt968]

Hi Bryan,

The various Angus local libraries have microfilm of the back copies of the local newspapers. They are actually copies of the British Library's microfilm. The Brechin Advertiser microfilms are in the Brechin public library. They are easily accessible. You simply ask at the counter. Slight problem, there is only one microfilm reader per library. I would allow quite a lot of time - reading the microfilms is a slow business.

The Angus Archives at Restenneth have a kind of register of the families of men on the Brechin war memorial. I can't remember exactly what it is about. When visiting Angus Archives it is as well to phone beforehand as not everything is kept onsite.

R.

[Ron Abbott]

Yep, the first photo is RNR Black Watch. The plain glengarry, the cap badge, the sporran type, tartan, collar dogs and the 'shortened/cut off spats', single type flashes....all point to to that. Not sure the RSM would be happy about the flashes being at the side though!

[advsmt]

Hi, still trying to piece together military careers. I’m after some expert advice! Although I realise the information may no longer exist. My great uncle, who I mentioned above, Pte. Thomas Duncan, S/16513, 14th (F&F) The Black Watch, died 2nd Sep 1918 at Moislains. He is resting at Fins new British Cemetery, Sorel-le-Grand. His death is listed in DD Ogilvie’s book on the F&F. I am trying to piece together his military journey up to this point. Unfortunately, it appears his service record did not survive so the information I have comes from other scant sources.

Firstly, his older brother’s pay book has his address, not dated, as; Thomas Duncan, no: TR/1/778, 38th Training Reserve Btl., Lochend, Dunfermline. Looking on-line I can see that this was the 11th(Reserve) Btl., The Black Watch. The camp became 38th TR after Sep 1916. So I guess he would not be there before then? The next address in the pay book has him with the 14th(Fife&Forfar) B.W., E.E.F. So it would appear he shipped out to Egypt as a replacement some time 1917 - training changed again May 1917, so TR numbers changed? However on-line showings graduation late 1917? His Service Number S/16513 I find odd? He never got a 6 figure number even though he survived fight up until the end of the war. Does this number imply TF service prior to Lochend call-up? Does troop sailing info exist outside of a service record, or could I find someone with a close number and infer similar movement. Ogilvie, states that they received reinforcements on the 8th Nov 1917 - how often would Egypt get 100 men -all from Lochend?  May 1918 the whole battalion left Egypt for France according to Ogilvie. The rest is well documented.

Am I missing something? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

many thanks

Bryan

[high wood]

On 20/09/2014 at 11:31, advsmt said:

Hi it's been a while since I added to this thread. I have found the odd piece of information and a large photo of David Duncan - though he is in uniform it is a head shot. Also got his bi-metallic RS cap badge, I already had his MGC. As he has a low MGC number I am assuming that he probably never got the all brass economy cap badge which was issued in 1916? I am also awaiting photos from my cousin. He got his medals and photo collection, hoping that has some RS stuff. My main question is does anyone have experience of getting buyer info from ebay? I found that one of his medals was sold about 4 years ago - this medal had been stolen from from cousin during a break-into his house. I would like to contact the buying to see if he would sell it.

Bryan

Do you know which medal was stolen? Was it one of David Duncans?

[pinksparklegirl]

Hi Bryan, I have just sent you a message regarding David Duncan's 1914-15 Star Medal.

[advsmt]

Hi High Wood, thanks for the message. It was Sjt David Duncan’s medals - Royal Scots & M.G.C. Ser. No.’s 14919 & 18360. It was the trio and MID leaf.

thanks

Bryan

[high wood]

13 hours ago, advsmt said:

Hi High Wood, thanks for the message. It was Sjt David Duncan’s medals - Royal Scots & M.G.C. Ser. No.’s 14919 & 18360. It was the trio and MID leaf.

thanks

Bryan

Do you have 14922 Charles Duncan's medals or know of their whereabouts?

[advsmt]

I don’t have any family medals, nor do I know of any family member who has Charles’ medals. I only have a cap badge of his. I know brother James (Scottish Horse); his daughter has his medals. I know nothing of Thomas’ (Black Watch) medals. 
Bryan