Orders for Trench Raid

[Nigel Marshall]

The words RETIRE or WITHDRAW will NOT be used. Dress was clean fatigue, hands and faces blackened, steel helmets. Square white patch on back below collar, officers will wear double patch. All papers, photos, identity discs, shoulder titles and badges will be left behind. A razor will be carried in the right breast pocket. Wire cutters were to be carried by 25% of the total party. Every man was to take rifle with bayonet fixed and blackened, 10 rounds in magazine, 5 clips in pocket. Parties No. 1,3,4,5 and 6 will carry 6 Mills bombs per man in haversacks. All officers and NCOs, and all other ranks of No. 8 party, were to wear light body shields.

These orders for a trench raid are pretty standard, but I've never seen it ordered that a razor be carried. I don't suppose that the raiders were going to stop for a bit of grooming so would they be for use as a close quarter weapon, or could it be to remove insignia from the enemy?

The rather confusing tense switches are in the original document, and are repoduced as printed.

I'm pretty stumped.

Cheers,

Nigel

[centurion]

Ask any guy who was in the Gorbals or Bridgeton Cross up to the 1970s and he'll tell you what a deadly (and silent) weapon the Malky (Malcom Frazier - Razor) could be at close quarters. All men in the British army were supposed to carry a cut throat razor in their kit (although many also had a private safety reazor as well).

[Steven Broomfield]

And you wouldn't want to look scruffy in those propaganda photos if it all went t*ts up and the Huns captured you, would you?

[regimentalrogue]

A primary task of raiders would have been to identify the enemy units in the opposing trenches. A razor might have been ordered carried as the most efficient way to cut away an enemy's shoulder strap identification or other badges.

[BIFFO]

Ask any guy who was in the Gorbals or Bridgeton Cross up to the 1970s and he'll tell you what a deadly (and silent) weapon the Malky (Malcom Frazier - Razor) could be at close quarters. All men in the British army were supposed to carry a cut throat razor in their kit (although many also had a private safety reazor as well).

I often wandered where doing the malky came from thanks for that,next time a rammy(I think its called)starts up im in there with me turbo as I do not own a cutthroat

[Nigel Marshall]

Thanks, gents. It seems both my guesses could be right. There's a first time for everything eh?

I have an open razor which I use when I have plenty of time, but the thing needs a good burst on the sharpening/honing strop quite often to make for a comfortable shave.

With space being at a premium in the soldiers kit, if they were meant to carry an open razor in their kit would they also be expected to carry the strop too on a one man, one strop basis, or could this become a shared item at the rate of, say one per section?

I know comparisons between the army of the BEF and modern times are often pointless, but in my experience of hanging around with the armourers, a strop could be something they might reasonably be expected to carry then, it is only a step up from a oilstone after all.

Any thoughts, please?

Nigel

[truthergw]

Any barber would strop a razor for you. If it was your regular, for free but only a couple of coppers if he charged. Generally a tip to the soap boy would do the trick in a big busy barber. Not unknown for a suitable leather belt to be used if necessary. The last couple of strokes on the palm of the hand. There was a whole world of razor maintenance out there. All gone now.

[museumtom]

I would have thought it was to cut off webbing as wounded soldiers were allowed to cast away their kit when the got wounded?

Regards.

Tom.

[27thBN]

Hmm you would need to get pretty close to use it ,and not my choice of weapon ,of course less noise than a bayonet,but a lot more personal......

MC

[truthergw]

Are we assuming that a man attacked with a razor will shout and scream at a lower volume than one who is bayonetted? The razor was for the removal of epaulettes, buttons and other identifying parts of uniform. Those with a fevered imagination should fall out for a nice cup of tea.

[centurion]

I have an open razor which I use when I have plenty of time, but the thing needs a good burst on the sharpening/honing strop quite often to make for a comfortable shave.

With space being at a premium in the soldiers kit, if they were meant to carry an open razor in their kit would they also be expected to carry the strop too on a one man, one strop basis, or could this become a shared item at the rate of, say one per section?

Looking at photos of kit laid out for inspection I can spot the army issue cut throat but no strop so I suspect it was shared (in the same manner that boot repair tools and stuff was).

Are we assuming that a man attacked with a razor will shout and scream at a lower volume than one who is bayonetted? The razor was for the removal of epaulettes, buttons and other identifying parts of uniform. Those with a fevered imagination should fall out for a nice cup of tea.

He certainly will if his throat has been cut

[PhilB]

Removal of epaulettes etc sounds a good reason to carry a razor but I wonder what the German reaction would be towards someone who was captured from a raid and then found to have an open razor in his pocket?

Or maybe it was expected and was standard equipment for German raiders too?

[green_acorn]

Can I offer the following view: the razor is carried specifically in the right breast pocket so that when incapacitated by wound or knocked out by blast the soldiers comrades can quickly locate his razor and cut off his web equipment to make it easier to drag or carry him away.

The other options are ok, cutting of epaulettes and as a weapon, but are flawed because epalettes were being cut off (usually by clasp/jack knife)without having to specify both the tool and where it was to be carried. As a weapon, though ideal and would certainly make me scream like a little girl, isn't necessarily going to quickly kill or disable an enemy and requires the user to get up very close to their enemy, a weapon more suited to the surprise of common street crime.

Why a razor to cut off webbing and not just the soldiers clasp knife? Because it will more quickly cut through the webbing belt and shoulder straps and can then be discarded without concern.

Finally specifying the location on the body where something MUST be carried was/is done so that item can be accessed in a time of stress, not by the soldier, but by his comrades, whether it be the razor, shell dressing, codes or maps, to either recover the item from the dead, or to assist the wounded.

Cheers,

Hendo

[centurion]

One minor question. If everyman is carrying a razor why would they need to use the fallen man's razor, quicker to pull out their own from their right hand pocket?

[PhilB]

Another minor question - I seem to remember that, if you undo the clasp on the waist belt, the webbing drops off in one piece. Did this happen with WW1 equipment?

[green_acorn]

The same reason every soldier carries a shell (wound) dressing, you always use the wounded man's NOT your own.

[green_acorn]

Phil,

From the pictures I have seen soldiers put the cross straps under their epaulettes, therefore once the belt is undone the webbing would still remain on the shoulders and would still hinder the rescuer/s, another two cuts would be required.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Andrew Upton]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ May 25 2010, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another minor question - I seem to remember that, if you undo the clasp on the waist belt, the webbing drops off in one piece. Did this happen with WW1 equipment?

Yes, both the 1914 and 1908 Infantry Equipment were specifically designed to be able to be removed as one piece, a distinct improvement over some of the earlier patterns that had been issued. I'm also very confident that even a well sharpened cut-throat would struggle to cut through the webbing of the 1908 type in anything less than the fraction of time it would take to unbutton the shoulder straps (if even buttoned over - period photo's sometimes show the equipment being worn over the buttoned down straps, to facilitate quick removal or replacement), undo the buckle and slip off the webbing. I also find it hard to imagine anyone deliberately and officially sanctioning the irreparable damage to issue kit that could be easily avoided. Simple speed of removing enemy epaulettes and such sounds so much more likely.

[truthergw]

So here is the scenario. After an assault in which rifles and bombs were used, my comrades and I have got into the enemy trench. I am confronted with an armed sentry so I lay down my loaded rifle with or without bayonet and attack him with my trusty cut throat razor.

[geraint]

Take it on the chin Tom, my young blade; it may be a close shave with a stroppy Hun foaming at the mouth.

[squirrel]

I would respectfully suggest that it is far easier to move a casualty with their webbing on (without pack etc) if you have to drag or carry them.

[green_acorn]

So here is the scenario. After an assault in which rifles and bombs were used, my comrades and I have got into the enemy trench. I am confronted with an armed sentry so I lay down my loaded rifle with or without bayonet and attack him with my trusty cut throat razor.

Tom,

Doesn't seem likely to me, wouldn't you resort to a knobbly batton or trench club first, plus they have a loop to go around the wrist so you don't lose it.

I must expand my reasoning by saying that I was applying the logic from my service many years ago, that is what was expected of me when I was in the Australian Army, as an infantry signaller, my codes, SOI's and message book had to be in my right hand basic pouch, my wound dressing on the left hand strap of my webbing, with spares anywhere else convenient and maps and documents in my left leg pocket. In that way if I theoretically had to be left behind, they could strip the important things of me first without having to search and knowing that they would have everything.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Steven Broomfield]

I have to say that when one sees German shoulder straps (I can't spell epaullettes) in museums, they do seem very smartly-cut at the sleeve end, if you know what I mean.

Presumably some form of risk assessment would have been undertaken prior to use? Wouldn't want to nick your finger.

[truthergw]

I was being a little facetious. ( OK, very facetious).

I think we need to realise that a raid was not a couple of guys sneaking into the German trenches and out again with a prisoner or his epaulettes. It was shooting and bombing with full fire support at anything from half platoon level up to company strength. It was an assault on the German lines and was not accomplished without a lot of noise, shouting, screaming, whistleblowing and guns going off. For the quiet acquisition of a shoulder strap or button, a party of two or three men would set out and attempt to slip in to a listening post or sap. That is when clubs, knives, axes etc. came into play and most of that action took place in no mans land between the opposing wires.

[centurion]

So here is the scenario. After an assault in which rifles and bombs were used, my comrades and I have got into the enemy trench. I am confronted with an armed sentry so I lay down my loaded rifle with or without bayonet and attack him with my trusty cut throat razor.

Alternatively the attack is silent and a sentry has to be eliminated quietly. I had an uncle in the RAF in WW2 who ended up as part of a unit intended to go ahead in an invasion and take and hold airstrips against the Japanese, fortunately, for him, the Bomb was dropped first. However he and others were taught how to eliminate a sentry by grabbing him from behind, pulling the head back with one hand and with an assault knife either cutting the exposed throat or driving the point up under he chin and into the brain. It was reckoned that cutting would be easier. A razor would do this job.

I was being a little facetious. ( OK, very facetious).

I think we need to realise that a raid was not a couple of guys sneaking into the German trenches and out again with a prisoner or his epaulettes. It was shooting and bombing with full fire support at anything from half platoon level up to company strength. It was an assault on the German lines and was not accomplished without a lot of noise, shouting, screaming, whistleblowing and guns going off. For the quiet acquisition of a shoulder strap or button, a party of two or three men would set out and attempt to slip in to a listening post or sap. That is when clubs, knives, axes etc. came into play and most of that action took place in no mans land between the opposing wires.

It could be either