mattjmalpass Posted 22 May , 2010 Share Posted 22 May , 2010 Hi Annette When my grandfather was a little boy (1916-1918?) he injured his leg and unfortunately had to have it amputated. Whilst he was in Kiddiminster hospital recovering a soldier came to his bedside and gave him a hug of comfort. The soldier (who he never saw again) told him that he was his father and left him a cap badge with the inscription KSLI. The soldier's name was Joseph MORRIS. Please could you help me find this Joseph MORRIS? Thank you Matt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 22 May , 2010 Share Posted 22 May , 2010 Welcome to the Forum. Only two men called Joseph Morris appear to have served abroad with the Shropshires. This is a link to their medal entitlement records on Ancestry: clickety click Of course, he may not have served abroad. What else do you know about your great grandfather? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjmalpass Posted 22 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2010 Hi John We know that my grandfather was illegitimate. We have records of his birth in the workhouse, Cleobury Mortimer. We believe that Joseph MORRIS was his father. The census 2nd April 1911, shows a boarder Joseph MORRIS living at 27 Barke Street, Highly, Shropshire. Married, 26, coalminer. Born: Quarry Bank, Staffs. The census 1901, confirms Quarry bank. The Barke street address is opposite Silverdale Terrace where Sarah Jane my greatgrandmother lived. We believe they had an affair long enough to produce 3 children. My problem is connecting Barke Street to the KSLI. If there are 2 Joseph Morris with the KSLI how can I be sure which one is correct. My grandmother said Joseph Morris was killed in the Somme. I can't seem to find trace. If this has shed any light, I hope so. Already you have wittled it down to 2 soldiers. Thanks Matt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 22 May , 2010 Share Posted 22 May , 2010 Already you have wittled it down to 2 soldiers. No, I havn't I'm afraid. I've whittled it down to two men called Joseph Morris who served abroad with the KSLI. There may be others in the records just listed by the initial and, as I said earlier, he may not have served overseas. Joseph Morris may have been killed in the war - but may not have been serving with the KSLI at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 22 May , 2010 Share Posted 22 May , 2010 Matt, Chances are i might be able to help. Problem is i'm in Lincolnshire at the moment, i'll post more when i'm back home tomorrow. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjmalpass Posted 23 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 23 May , 2010 Thanks John & Neil I realise now it's a little more complicated than I imagined. I recently learned that even their numbers were changed if they changed regiment. Was this to keep the enemy confused or geneologist?? Sometimes I feel it's like a needle in a haystack. Cheers Matt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 23 May , 2010 Share Posted 23 May , 2010 Sometimes I feel it's like a needle in a haystack. Wouldnt be fun if it was easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver55silver Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Hi John We know that my grandfather was illegitimate. We have records of his birth in the workhouse, Cleobury Mortimer. We believe that Joseph MORRIS was his father. The census 2nd April 1911, shows a boarder Joseph MORRIS living at 27 Barke Street, Highly, Shropshire. Married, 26, coalminer. Born: Quarry Bank, Staffs. The census 1901, confirms Quarry bank. The Barke street address is opposite Silverdale Terrace where Sarah Jane my greatgrandmother lived. We believe they had an affair long enough to produce 3 children. My problem is connecting Barke Street to the KSLI. If there are 2 Joseph Morris with the KSLI how can I be sure which one is correct. My grandmother said Joseph Morris was killed in the Somme. I can't seem to find trace. If this has shed any light, I hope so. Already you have wittled it down to 2 soldiers. Thanks Matt1 Hi Matt I'm a newbie and not an expert on things Military but am interested in your story so I've been following it. Have you seen the Joseph Morris record in the Ancestry WW1 Pension Records? He attested on 17 Sep 1914 at Worcester (Kidderminster is crossed out). Regimental Number: 13032 Born: Quarry Bank, Cradley, Staffordshire (wrongly transcribed as 'Obary Bank' on Ancestry) Age: 28 years 279 days Trade or calling: Miner This sheet is stamped with 12th (Service) Battalion Hampshire Regiment but at the bottom of the sheet of his Description/ Medical on the same day as his attestation, the approving officer appointed him to the Worcestershire regiment. There is also a Medical History sheet for recruits going directly into the regular army which says he's been posted to the Hants (expert required to sort this out for you). His statement of Service Record (with the 12th Hants) says: Posted 1.10.14 Discharged 30.12.14 Paragraph 392 Section 16 (expert required to translate this) Next of Kin: Father, John Morris, Sheffield St, Quarry Bank, Cradley, Staffs Wife: Agnes (nee Honer) address not known married 15 May 1903 at Cradley Son: John born 26 Nov 1903 at Sheffield St, Quarry Bank & baptised 26 Dec 1903 at Cradley This looks as though it's the man on your Censuses but there is no connection to KSLI. Have you got the right man on the Censuses? Or could this man have re-enlisted at a later date with the KSLI? (expert needed again). Hope this helps with your puzzle. Best wishes Jeannie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Hi, Sorry for the delay. Jeannie has beat me to it. That's all i could find. There are no Joseph Morris' in my database that provided a match. As Jeannie said he might have re-enlisted. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 24 May , 2010 Share Posted 24 May , 2010 Paragraph 392 Section 16 (expert required to translate this) Simply "No longer fit for Military service". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjmalpass Posted 25 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2010 wow! thanks for all the information. I now need to speak with my uncle and see if he would like to join the forum. He has the details about Quarry Bank. I thought I was supercool finding Joseph Morris 13344 at the weekend, now he may not have served at all thanks again, Matt1 (someone has done a good job with these icons) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 As Jeannie said he might have re-enlisted. Seems unlikely if he was discharged as no longer fit for service and, presumably, awarded a pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver55silver Posted 26 May , 2010 Share Posted 26 May , 2010 wow! thanks for all the information. I now need to speak with my uncle and see if he would like to join the forum. He has the details about Quarry Bank. I thought I was supercool finding Joseph Morris 13344 at the weekend, now he may not have served at all thanks again, Matt1 (someone has done a good job with these icons) Hi Matt Have you been able to access Joseph's file on Ancestry? If so, you'll notice that at enlistment, his thighs were scarred from burns (cicatrices) - several on the upper right thigh and one on the left thigh. I wondered if that might have caused problems when he started training - especially if the scars were fairly recent. It would explain why he only served for 105 days. There is no reference to a pension on his records. Neil may know whether he would qualify for one after such a short service. If you don't have the records send me a PM with your email address. On the CWGC there is a Pte 18339 J. Morris 1st Btn KSLI died 22/3/1918 - Special Memorial 20 at Dernancourt Communal Cemetery Extension. This is very close to the town of Albert so I'm guessing he was killed at the Somme. Neil will correct me if I'm wrong. His Medal Card gives his name as John Morris but I think he is worth keeping on your list for now because his death matches with your Grandma's memories. All these pieces may, or may not, be part of the same jigsaw but don't give up. It took me ages to find my gt grandad's father. Jeannie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjmalpass Posted 26 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2010 Hi Jeannie I'm still pretty new at this and have had trouble researching on Ancestry. I still have to get a reply from my uncle who has the details on Quarry Bank. He told me that Joseph Morris had lived next door to the Bellinghams in 1901 and at some time moved with them to lodge and work in Highly. Copy/Paste from my uncle:This census was taken on the 2nd. April 1911. Living at 27, Barke Street, Highley were:- Fred Billingham, (head), 41 years old, Coalminer "at face", born Cradley Heath, Staffs. Eliza Billingham, (wife), 40 years old, born "The Lye" Worcester. Albert Billingham, (son), 17 years old, born Cradley heath, Staffs. Joseph Morris, (boarder) (married), 26 years old, Coalminer "at face", born Quarry Bank, Staffs. David Penn, (boarder) (married), 25 years old, Coalminer "at face", born Quarry Bank, Staffs. Ten years previously, on the 1901 census, Joseph can be found living in Quarry Bank and next door to him lived the above family of Billinghams. They must have all been well aquainted for several years. From this we can say that Joseph was born about 1884 or 1885. I'll try again tonight. Cheers Matt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjmalpass Posted 26 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2010 Dear Jeanie thank you so much for guiding me. Yes please I would love any information you have on this Joseph Morris. I have tried sending a pm but it was blocked?? You're correct with the Quarry bank, I now know that: Joseph morris, (father John) Born: 1885, Kingwinsford Staffs Census 1901: 63 sheffeild st, boarder age 16, miner (next to Billinghams) Married 1903: his fiancée was 2 months pregnant. Census 1911: 27 Barke st, highly, shropshire. (next to Billinghams) Boarding without wife. I believe you've made the link to the army with Joseph Morris 13032. If his burns had healed then could he have been re-enlisted? Just by chance does Sarah Jane Malpass hold anything for you? Matt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 26 May , 2010 Share Posted 26 May , 2010 On the CWGC there is a Pte 18339 J. Morris 1st Btn KSLI died 22/3/1918 - Special Memorial 20 at Dernancourt Communal Cemetery Extension. This is very close to the town of Albert so I'm guessing he was killed at the Somme. Neil will correct me if I'm wrong. His Medal Card gives his name as John Morris but I think he is worth keeping on your list for now because his death matches with your Grandma's memories. Jeannie Jeannie, The J. Morris is John Morris of, Ketley (Modern Day Telford) This is indeed a tricky one. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 26 May , 2010 Share Posted 26 May , 2010 Off on a tangent this Malpass casualty was born in Kingswinford. http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=455614 Back on track. Am i correct in thinking his last residence prior to enlistment was Highley? Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjmalpass Posted 27 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2010 Hi Neil Unfortunately the Malpass connection is a red herring. He was definately MORRIS. We strongly believe he had an affair with the girl in the next street Sarah Jane Malpass. From this he fathered 3 children, all illegitamate. The census 2nd April 1911, shows a boarder Joseph MORRIS living at 27 Barke Street, Highly, Shropshire. Married, 26, coalminer. Born: Quarry Bank, Staffs. Head of household was Fred Billingham,41, miner. They are also found as neighbours in 1901, 63 & 64 Sheffeild st. Quarry Bank, Staffs. Joseph Morris 13032 had the same address on his file. He is a bit elusive our Joe. If a soldier was unfit for duty but made a full recovery then could he have re-enlisted? Cheers Matt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 27 May , 2010 Share Posted 27 May , 2010 From this he fathered 3 children, all illegitimate. Have you got the birth certs for all 3 children, they may or may not, give details of the father Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjmalpass Posted 28 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2010 Hi Corisande my grand father (fred) was born in Cleobury Mortimer workhouse. The birth certificate under father 'not known'. Other details will be released in 2012. The other 2 children my uncle has researched and I think, the same. He has regestered with the forum and waiting acceptance. I spoke with my father last night and interrogated him about the KSLI connection. He remembers a Cap Badge with a horn? It sat proudly on the mantle piece attached to Fred's wedding photo. Both brothers (my father and uncle) are sure he served with the KSLI. The whole family moved to America around 1959 and moved back within the decade. The badge was lost in transit. The chain of events leading me to believeJoseph Morris re-enlisted are: Married 1903: financée 2 months pregnant. Marriage didn't last. 1906: met Sarah Jane Malpass 1911: They had produced 3 children. 1914: worcestershire 13032 oct-dec enlisted and discharged with thigh wounds. 1915: Sarah Jane Malpass married another man. He had no wife, no job, his love had married. Many soldiers had already fallen at the front line which is where he should have been. Guilt, loneliness, duty and returned health may have spurred him to re-enlist. After the army's losses a medical may not even have been that thorough? 1915: sept 'a' Joseph Morris began service with the Shropshire 13344. 1919: he survived the war. This is speculation: I'm just trying to piece bits of information together. Without speculation where would we be? Cheers Matt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 28 May , 2010 Share Posted 28 May , 2010 The J Morris 18339 you can probably discard. He is on SDGW as Name: John Morris Birth Place: Oakengates, Salop Residence: Ketley, Salop Death Date: 22 Mar 1918 Death Location: France & Flanders Enlistment Location: Wellington Rank: Private Regiment: King's (Shropshire Light Infantry) Battalion: 1st Battalion Number: 18339 Type of Casualty: Died of wounds So his name was John Morris, not Joseph and he was born in Shropshire. (as a hint to you, cross check always CWGC and SDGW) as they often have slightly different bits of info) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 28 May , 2010 Share Posted 28 May , 2010 OK on to your theory. Yes in my opinion the best way to crack these problem is to work out the most probable solution and see if it holds water In your case 1. If he re-enlisted under the name Morris, in KSLI, then he was not killed Here is a list of all Morris killed in KSLI on SDGW and if you run down the birth places, your man is not there 2. If he enlisted under the name Joseph Morris, in KSLI, then there should be a medal index card for him if he served outside UK. Back to the 2 cards you have. When did each man join up (work it out from service number), and can you eliminate either. To test your theory then it would have to be one of these two men 3. Logically I would also add if Sarah married another man in 1915, she would still have been in touch with Joseph Morris if she told him the boy was in hospital having an amputation. You may find it useful to get that date. I is odd that she was able to get a message to him, and that he was able to get to a hospital in UK if he was serving in France 4. Seems odd to me that they managed to have 3 illegitimate children, without actually living together. Given the time and the morals of the time 5. I am a little confused as to how you know the man with the KSLI cap badge was called Joseph Morris. How do you cannect the cap badge to the name Joseph Morris. 6. If he did re-enlist, then he may have changed his name or other details to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjmalpass Posted 28 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2010 Hi Corisande firstly thanks! I'm going to work over the points you've made at the weekend. Gee I've got some homework! My grandfather (Fred, with amputated leg) told my uncle this story of the hospital when he was a little boy. It was Fred that gave the soldiers name as Joseph Morris. I learned last night that Fred was put into a workhouse/home for boys as the family could not support him. How the world has changed. Ironically though this is where he learnt his proffession as a cobbler! This is true. Regarding the cap badge: as it can no longer be found, I'm going to ask 2 witnesses to come forward. My father and uncle know the badge well and are both accomplished artists. Without confering I'd like them both to draw as best they can what they each saw attached to Fred's wedding photo. Please give marks out of ten for accuracy. Have a great weekend Matt1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjmalpass Posted 15 June , 2010 Author Share Posted 15 June , 2010 This is the badge as my father remembers it, (hopefully it's attached!) Matt1 Hi Matt Sorry about the delay, everybody been busy at present. Illustration is the bade of Light Infantry as issued in 14/18 war. This is the badge as i remember it. Hope you are all well! All our love! Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 15 June , 2010 Share Posted 15 June , 2010 Matt Is that an actual sketch done by your father from memory, or has he just hoovered up "a light infantry badge" from somewhere off the web. I take it from what you said earlier your father and uncle agree that is the badge they saw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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