4th batt royal welsh fusiliers/ 7th batt royal welsh fusiliers

[mikewoodfin]

Hi all,

Just joined the forum as i am researching family tree and also ex navy as just left after 20 years and need something to keep me occupied.

My great grandfather private john henry williams 76037 ( Born Liverpool, joined Bangor, lived Holyhead) was killed in action 9th june 1918 and is buried in franvillers com cemetry extension ( ie18 ). my grandfather william evans buried him but never told the family what had happened but i am assuming he died of his wounds due to a nearby field hospital unit.

the info i have from ancestry.com lists him as 4th batt rwf but on the cwwg lists him as 7th batt rwf.

Anyone know what action the above units had during the first week of june 1918.

regards

mike

[River97]

Mike,

Welcome to the forum. follow the link here to the Long, Long Trail and it will provide you with some details. Scroll through to the bottom of the page and it will give you the applicable Divisions to help you with your research.

Cheers Andy.

[clive_hughes]

Mike,

I'd noticed the 7th RWF description in the CWGC listings, which doesn't fit in with his being killed in action in France. The 1/7th was the Merioneth & Montgomeryshire Battalion (Territorial Force) and from 1915 were out in Gallipoli, then Palestine.

Of course he might have served with a reserve unit (such as 2/7th) in the UK before he was sent to the 1/4th RWF, hence the confusion maybe? Or just a typo by the CWGC? The 1/4th Denbighshire Battn. (Territorial Force) were the Divisional Pioneer Battalion for 47th Division by 1918. There is a published history for them, and one of the other members may be able to quote from this or their War Diary in order to tell you what happened the day he died.

He was recorded as killed in action, rather than dying of wounds some time later. This is a technical difference - it just means he died either on the spot or in any case before the authorities could send a "wounded" notification out. If they'd documented him as a wounded man and sent that notification, the next would be "Died of Wounds".

His family seemingly did not add any extra information to the CWGC Registers, and his grave at Franvillers has no additional personal epitaph inscribed. He is named on the Holyhead panel of the North Wales Memorial Arch in Bangor, Gwynedd, and on the Holyhead town war memorial.

I did not know he was born in Liverpool - is this information from family sources or a surviving Service Record? I couldn't pin him down on Ancestry just now.

LST_164

[Carmania]

Mike

This is from the Holyhead Chronicle of 21st June 1918:

'Official intimation has been received of the death in action of Private John Williams, 7 Mill Bank Gardens. He leaves a widow and several children.'

Aled

[mikewoodfin]

Mike

This is from the Holyhead Chronicle of 21st June 1918:

'Official intimation has been received of the death in action of Private John Williams, 7 Mill Bank Gardens. He leaves a widow and several children.'

Aled

Thank you all, John Henry Williams was born in 49 Grey road in Walton on the hill, Liverpool on 27 may 1877.His father,Thomas H Williams was a painter and decorator from anglesey and was working in liverpool on all the new building projects. his details and photo can be seen on my public members family tree on ancestry .com if you type in woodfin family and search his name. his best friend william evans became my grandfather as they agreed to look after each others family if anything happend to each other. william returned to holyhead and fell in love with john williams daughter margaret and they had a large family.

****** Hi Carmania, where do i find the article from the holyhead chronicle is it available online or can one of my family get it from the holyhead chronicle office as i have a lot of family in holyhead**************

[mikewoodfin]

Thank you all, John Henry Williams was born in 49 Grey road in Walton on the hill, Liverpool on 27 may 1877.His father,Thomas H Williams was a painter and decorator from anglesey and was working in liverpool on all the new building projects. his details and photo can be seen on my public members family tree on ancestry .com if you type in woodfin family and search his name. his best friend william evans became my grandfather as they agreed to look after each others family if anything happend to each other. william returned to holyhead and fell in love with john williams daughter margaret and they had a large family.

****** Hi Carmania, where do i find the article from the holyhead chronicle is it available online or can one of my family get it from the holyhead chronicle office as i have a lot of family in holyhead**************

Hi Geraint,

Hope this sheds some light onto my Great Grandfather, John Henry Williams

Regards

MIKE

[Carmania]

****** Hi Carmania, where do i find the article from the holyhead chronicle is it available online or can one of my family get it from the holyhead chronicle office as i have a lot of family in holyhead**************

Mike

I made a note of the article about John Henry Williams from the Holyhead Chronicle many years ago whilst trawling through local newspapers at the Anglesey Records Office in Llangefni.

Aled

[mikewoodfin]

Mike

I made a note of the article about John Henry Williams from the Holyhead Chronicle many years ago whilst trawling through local newspapers at the Anglesey Records Office in Llangefni.

Aled

Many thanks Aled,

I work all over North Wales in my civvy job as an Engineer and I am usually in Anglesey on a Wednesday. Will try and call in over the next few weeks to view and copy

regards

Mike

[clive_hughes]

Hi Mike,

just been looking at the family record you quoted on Ancestry, very interesting.

"Soldiers Died in the Great War" which you've already seen, was compiled using the original service papers of the men concerned so reflects what was written in them. J.H.Williams' birthplace was not stated probably because the type of form used didn't ask for it - this would be typical of Territorial Force enlistment forms. Yet he doesn't have a Territorial number - these would usually be 4-figure up to the start of 1917, and 6-figure thereafter. 76037 is an RWF number as issued to General Service wartime entrants - possibly 1916 or more likely 1917?? There are others on Forum who can comment better re. this.

Without his file we are floundering a bit, but one scenario is that he was called up, given a standard number, and posted as a general reinforcement to a Territorial battalion without being attested specifically as a TF entrant. But in that case why no birthplace recorded?

Another scenario- he enlists as a Territorial, but before going overseas changes attestation to General Service (thereby altering his number), but still eventually ends up with a TF unit. Bit complex, but such things could happen! The number & unit you see on his Medal Index Card is what he had on first landing in a Theatre of War and afterwards; not what happened to him before that in the UK!

One way to check this out is to look up the actual RWF Medal Roll at the National Archives, Kew - his entry should include which battalions he served with. May not tell you more than you know already, but would at least confirm unit(s) and maybe give a bit more info. Contacting the Royal Welch Forum may also be of help.

Place of enlistment is exactly that - the location where he was sworn in as a soldier. Needn't have any bearing on exactly where he was living at the time, since this event tended to take place at specified area recruiting offices. Indeed his place of residence as in SDGW isn't strictly that - it's usually the place his next of kin was residing, though of course he could be living at the same location. Had he, his wife & family moved to Holyhead with the LNWRailway?

I was also most interested to see J.H.Williams' picture on the Ancestry site - would it be possible please to have a copy to go with his details & gravestone image, for my Anglesey project (see below)?

LST_164

[mikewoodfin]

Hi Mike,

just been looking at the family record you quoted on Ancestry, very interesting.

"Soldiers Died in the Great War" which you've already seen, was compiled using the original service papers of the men concerned so reflects what was written in them. J.H.Williams' birthplace was not stated probably because the type of form used didn't ask for it - this would be typical of Territorial Force enlistment forms. Yet he doesn't have a Territorial number - these would usually be 4-figure up to the start of 1917, and 6-figure thereafter. 76037 is an RWF number as issued to General Service wartime entrants - possibly 1916 or more likely 1917?? There are others on Forum who can comment better re. this.

Without his file we are floundering a bit, but one scenario is that he was called up, given a standard number, and posted as a general reinforcement to a Territorial battalion without being attested specifically as a TF entrant. But in that case why no birthplace recorded?

Another scenario- he enlists as a Territorial, but before going overseas changes attestation to General Service (thereby altering his number), but still eventually ends up with a TF unit. Bit complex, but such things could happen! The number & unit you see on his Medal Index Card is what he had on first landing in a Theatre of War and afterwards; not what happened to him before that in the UK!

One way to check this out is to look up the actual RWF Medal Roll at the National Archives, Kew - his entry should include which battalions he served with. May not tell you more than you know already, but would at least confirm unit(s) and maybe give a bit more info. Contacting the Royal Welch Forum may also be of help.

Place of enlistment is exactly that - the location where he was sworn in as a soldier. Needn't have any bearing on exactly where he was living at the time, since this event tended to take place at specified area recruiting offices. Indeed his place of residence as in SDGW isn't strictly that - it's usually the place his next of kin was residing, though of course he could he living at the same location. Had he, his wife & family moved to Holyhead with the LNWRailway?

I was also most interested to see J.H.Williams' picture on the Ancestry site - would it be possible please to have a copy to go with his details & gravestone image, for my Anglesey project (see below)?

LST_164

Thanks for the interest LST_164

Of course you can have a copy, if you can't take a decent copy off ancestory then pm me and i will send a better copy to you. I dont know why but i am sure it was mentioned in my family in the past that he joined the TA either just before the war or at the start but no one left that I can ask. I listed him twice by mistake on the familly tree. a full family photo is available if you go on his daughter ( my grandmother) margaret isabella.

cheers

Mike

[mikewoodfin]

Thanks for the interest LST_164

Of course you can have a copy, if you can't take a decent copy off ancestory then pm me and i will send a better copy to you. I dont know why but i am sure it was mentioned in my family in the past that he joined the TA either just before the war or at the start but no one left that I can ask. I listed him twice by mistake on the familly tree. a full family photo is available if you go on his daughter ( my grandmother) margaret isabella.

cheers

Mike

The other information I have about him is that both John Henry Williams and William Evans were both gassed earlier in the war at the same time but I haven't been able to find out when or where or if they got sent back home to recover. I know that William Evans ( my grandfather ) suffered with his chest all his life after the war and served in the merchant navy during ww2 and died in the 1950's

[geraint]

Hi Mike.

Finally caught up with the thread!

Here's from the Battalion's history. 4th (Denbighshire) Battalion RWF

Roll of honour

Williams, John Henry, e. Bangor (Holyhead), 76037, Pte., k.i.a., F&F, 9/6/18

This from the history for that date:

On 1 June, they left Bresle on the Ancre, and slept in the new cuppolas they'd just finished building outside the town.

"Early in June a rumour went around that the Bosch were planning a new attack on Amiens. If so, he would be bound to attack the high ground to the North of the Ancre. Tanks had been seen by our aircraft concentrating behind his lines. On June 6th, the whole battalionwere used to dig a trench of unusual width, which could serve the purpose of a tank trap, about 600 yards north of Buire sur ancre. This entailed the removal of a huge quantity of soil, so the three companies were kept digging for four nights. It was subsequently completed, and bridged by B Company after several interuptions caused by occasional heavy bombardments of gas and high explosives. On the night of 8th-9th June the working parties were shelled out of the tank trap, and several shells obtained direct hits upon the trench where B and C companies were billeted, killing 5 men, and wounding 15."

Seems that poor John Henry died there.

The 4th were an infantry pioneer Territorial battalion, and were shipped out to France on 5th Nov 1914. They worked in all the hot spots, and were used as front line consolidators, and as moppers up during attacks.

If you need any more info on them - let me know

Geraint

[mikewoodfin]

Hi Mike.

Finally caught up with the thread!

Here's from the Battalion's history. 4th (Denbighgshire) Battalion RWF

Roll of honour

Williams, John Henry, e. Bangor (Holyhead), 76037, Pte., k.i.a., F&F, 9/6/18

This from the history for that date:

On 1 June, they left Bresle on the Ancre, and slept in the new cuppolas they'd just finished building outside the town.

"Early in June a rumour went around that the Bosch were planning a new attack on Amiens. If so, he would be bound to attack the high ground to the North of the Ancre. Tanks had been seen by our aircraft concentrating behind his lines. On June 6th, the whole battalionwere used to dig a trench of unusual width, which could serve the purpose of a tank trap, about 600 yards north of Buire sur ancre. This entailed the removal of a huge quantity of soil, so the three companies were kept digging for four nights. It was subsequently completed, and bridged by B Company after several interuptions caused by occasional heavy bombardments of gas and high explosives. On the night of 8th-9th June the working parties were shelled out of the tank trap, and several shells obtained direct hits upon the trench where B and C companies were billeted, killing 5 men, and wounding 15."

Seems that poor John Henry died there.

The 4th were an infantry pioneer Territorial battalion, and were shipped out to France on 5th Nov 1914. They worked in all the hot spots, and were used as front line consolidators, and as moppers up during attacks.

If you need any more info on them - let me know

Geraint

GERAINT, YOU ARE AN ABSOLUTE STAR, MANY MANY THANKS

REGARDS

MIKE

[geraint]

Pleasure's mine Mike!

[Barry Hayter]

Hi Mike,

My GGF also served with that Battalion joining from the Royal Engineers on 03.02.17 through to the end of hostilities.

From the War diaries (which obviously reflect Geraints fab reply) there is a little more detail. Interestingly on 9th June it notes 1 OR missing ... I wonder if this is your man.

6th Fine. The three Companies worked at night on a broad trench designed to fulfil the purpose of a tank trap.

7th Fine. Work as usual.

8th Fine. Work on tank trap interrupted shortly before midnight by hostile gas and H.E bombardment which continued up to 2am making work impossible. The valley to the North of Buire was heavily shelled during this period, several shells falling among B and C Coy billets. 5 ORs killed. 16 ORs to hospital wounded.

9th Fine. Work at night was continued on tank trap. 1 O.R missing.

Regards

[mikewoodfin]

Hi Mike,

My GGF also served with that Battalion joining from the Royal Engineers on 03.02.17 through to the end of hostilities.

From the War diaries (which obviously reflect Geraints fab reply) there is a little more detail. Interestingly on 9th June it notes 1 OR missing ... I wonder if this is your man.

6th Fine. The three Companies worked at night on a broad trench designed to fulfil the purpose of a tank trap.

7th Fine. Work as usual.

8th Fine. Work on tank trap interrupted shortly before midnight by hostile gas and H.E bombardment which continued up to 2am making work impossible. The valley to the North of Buire was heavily shelled during this period, several shells falling among B and C Coy billets. 5 ORs killed. 16 ORs to hospital wounded.

9th Fine. Work at night was continued on tank trap. 1 O.R missing.

Regards

Many thanks for that, been off the forum for a few weeks as I have been away. I know he was buried and not missing presumed killed as my grandfather said he wrapped my GGF body in his trench coat and buried him so Im assuming that he was one of the 5 killed the night before. It says he died on the 9th so I suppose it depends when the officer wrote the diary, whether it was after midnight and so on. Thanks for adding some more details.

Mike

[mikewoodfin]

Can I please say a massive thank you to the member who has supplied me with the full war diary for my great grandfathers unit. Im sorry but I have lost your contact details but I am forever in your debt. I specialise in photography and photo restoration so if you have any old photo's or negatives that you wish doing please PM me anytime

cheers

Mike woodfin