Le Cateau Help Please

[divadnosae]

A few years back a chap on here called Maurice gave me some superb help and even gave me info from the war diaries reagding my grandfather and Old Contemptible.Wounded whilst serving with the Rifle Brigade 1st Battalion, 1st Battlion, 11th Infantry Division, 26^th August 1916. (Back then I was whistler )

Time has not allowed much movement on my Family History files but on sight of a map showing "British Positions on the 26th August 1914" I notice two 11th Infantry brigades shown. One is just North of Ligny and the other further North East. Is this the same "11th" but showing the retreat or two sections?

I am looking to pin my Grandfather down to an area as near as because I hopefully one day will walk in his steps. For now I have to do with street map but at least I can now see where he was.

Maurice also mentioned MY GF may have been taken to Ligny Church when his right arm was shot off. Are there any other likely first aid posts?

I have a whistle that he found after being shot and he blew it to summons help so the story goes.

Thanks to all in advance

[ander11]

Hi there , tried looking in LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/

you will find Information in this site

IanAnder

[nigelcave]

The Regimental History gives a very full account. They became, initially, the reserve for 11 Brigade, around the Quarry, south west of Fontaine (they had previously been bivouacked NW of Fonatine) and then made a very hasty retreat to the forward (northern) edge of Ligny at about 3 pm.

[divadnosae]

The Regimental History gives a very full account. They became, initially, the reserve for 11 Brigade, around the Quarry, south west of Fontaine (they had previously been bivouacked NW of Fonatine) and then made a very hasty retreat to the forward (northern) edge of Ligny at about 3 pm.

Great stuff many thanks and to the chap above you

[CROONAERT]

Map extract from the O.H. depicting the two positions of the day...

dave

[divadnosae]

Map extract from the O.H. depicting the two positions of the day...

dave

Thats a very good map. have not seen that before.Thank you.

What does 1/S.O.M.L.I. mean and lower down 135 R.F.A.?

Did the RB retreat to Ligny under the Railway line via the bridge?

Dave

[lostinspace]

1st Battalion Prince Albert's (Somerset Light Infantry) of 11 Infantry Brigade and 135 Battery of XXXII Brigade, Royal Field Artillery (both of 4 Infantry Division). If you want a good source of information, forum members Nigel Cave and Jack Sheldon wrote an excellent account for Pen and Sword (Battleground Series) called "Le Cateau". I'll see if I can pull together some on-line resources for you as well.

Regards,

Dave

[lostinspace]

I have access to the Rifle Brigade Chronicles, the chance of there being any information on an enlisted casualty is very slim but if you give me your grandfather's name I'll have a look. You can also check out these online books (hopefully) - http://www.archive.org/details/militaryoperatio01edmouoft , http://www.archive.org/details/royalregimentofa00beck and http://www.archive.org/details/greatwarramc00brer . The last has some detailed info on the R.A.M.C. and gives some idea of the medical arrangements at Le Cateau.

Regards,

Dave

[Michelle Young]

I wonder if you mean my Dad Maurice Johnson? I'll alert him to this thread.

Michelle

[divadnosae]

I wonder if you mean my Dad Maurice Johnson? I'll alert him to this thread.

Michelle

Was a few years back and he got me the war diaries and other stuff. He also mentioned my grandfather may have been taken injured to Ligny church. Its the nitty gritty info I want to know. I still have his trench whistle that he blew whilts injurd and it got him some help. Rifle Wound to right shoulder and amputated arm. I was 11 when he died but really want to find out as much as I can about him at war to follow in his footsteps on the 100th anniversary date. He had a crap life to be honest workhouse at a young age and into war plus the injury, but he got on with it. Wished I had known him better.

I have access to the Rifle Brigade Chronicles, the chance of there being any information on an enlisted casualty is very slim but if you give me your grandfather's name I'll have a look. You can also check out these online books (hopefully) - http://www.archive.o...ratio01edmouoft , http://www.archive.o...gimentofa00beck and http://www.archive.o...atwarramc00brer . The last has some detailed info on the R.A.M.C. and gives some idea of the medical arrangements at Le Cateau.

Regards,

Dave

Many thanks Dave

Dave

[divadnosae]

1st Battalion Prince Albert's (Somerset Light Infantry) of 11 Infantry Brigade and 135 Battery of XXXII Brigade, Royal Field Artillery (both of 4 Infantry Division). If you want a good source of information, forum members Nigel Cave and Jack Sheldon wrote an excellent account for Pen and Sword (Battleground Series) called "Le Cateau". I'll see if I can pull together some on-line resources for you as well.

Regards,

Dave

Thankk again dave.

I have that book. I would appriciate road names if its poss. Routes taken on the retreat with as much details as poss, if poss. I have seen the journey form Harrow to Southampton le Harvre. How did they get form Le Harvre to Le Cateau train I presume but I have seen some reports of marching?????? AT Southampton did the train stop IN the docks or at the Station just outside and what actual dock did the SS Cestrian sail from? I know it was Gate 4 but again, its nitty gritty I like.

I was reading tonight that a Hospital at Netley (not the CAstle) was a place where many were treated after return to the UK. Shame I never found his War Badge when his son died in 2004 but do have his medals to treasure.

The Regimental History gives a very full account. They became, initially, the reserve for 11 Brigade, around the Quarry, south west of Fontaine (they had previously been bivouacked NW of Fonatine) and then made a very hasty retreat to the forward (northern) edge of Ligny at about 3 pm.

Thank U Nigel very much appricated. Shame Street map does not show all of this area at the moment

[divadnosae]

I have access to the Rifle Brigade Chronicles, the chance of there being any information on an enlisted casualty is very slim but if you give me your grandfather's name I'll have a look. You can also check out these online books (hopefully) - http://www.archive.o...ratio01edmouoft , http://www.archive.o...gimentofa00beck and http://www.archive.o...atwarramc00brer . The last has some detailed info on the R.A.M.C. and gives some idea of the medical arrangements at Le Cateau.

Regards,

Dave

Dave

His name was David William Eason Born 1890

RB E/8 5/9972 are the numbers on his discharge sheet 44 White Post Lane Hackney London MIC Silver W B 4053/1/B

Once again. Thank You to all

[lostinspace]

Here are some excerpts from Ray Westlake's "British Battalions in France and Belgium, 1914" on 1 Rifle Bde. (pp 327-328): "Arrived Havre, disembarked during early hours (23rd) and marched to No.3 Rest Camp.", "Entrained (24th) and travelled via Rouen and Amiens to Le Cateau. Detrained 5:30 am (25th) and marched to Briastre. Entrenched line running from the Briastre-Solesmes road to almost Fontaine-au-Tartre. Began withdrawal 8:20 pm, marching through Beauvois to bivouacs just north-west of Fontaine-au-Pire. Arrived 2 am (26th) and "C" Company took up outpost positions at Cattenieres. Enemy cavalry patrols engaged and driven off. Came under shell fire and German infantry seen advancing. Withdrew via Haucourt to ridge between Fontaine-au-Pire and Ligny and took up defensive positions in a sunken road. Position held under heavy fire. Major Rickman mortally wounded during afternoon. Enemy came to within 100 yards, their fire coming from the front, left flank and rear and causing high casualties. Withdrew to Ligny and assembled in the Church. A report written by an officer of "A" Company notes that the retreating companies were unable to move the wounded from the sunken road. Captain Bridgeman records the casualties as follows - Major Rickman and 6 men killed, Captain Lane, Lieutenant Foljambe and 345 other ranks were missing, almost all believed wounded and taken prisoner, Captains de Moleyns, Liddell, Morgan-Grenville, Lieutenant Coryton and 15 other ranks were wounded and reached Ligny church. Captain Bridgeman also notes that the 11th Brigade was clear of Ligny, and - "the great retreat had commenced."

Your Grandfather may have been one of the lucky ones to reach the church, otherwise he probably would have been captured. There is more info describing the retreat and I can do that tomorrow if you want.

Regards,

Dave

[divadnosae]

Here are some excerpts from Ray Westlake's "British Battalions in France and Belgium, 1914" on 1 Rifle Bde. (pp 327-328): "Arrived Havre, disembarked during early hours (23rd) and marched to No.3 Rest Camp.", "Entrained (24th) and travelled via Rouen and Amiens to Le Cateau. Detrained 5:30 am (25th) and marched to Briastre. Entrenched line running from the Briastre-Solesmes road to almost Fontaine-au-Tartre. Began withdrawal 8:20 pm, marching through Beauvois to bivouacs just north-west of Fontaine-au-Pire. Arrived 2 am (26th) and "C" Company took up outpost positions at Cattenieres. Enemy cavalry patrols engaged and driven off. Came under shell fire and German infantry seen advancing. Withdrew via Haucourt to ridge between Fontaine-au-Pire and Ligny and took up defensive positions in a sunken road. Position held under heavy fire. Major Rickman mortally wounded during afternoon. Enemy came to within 100 yards, their fire coming from the front, left flank and rear and causing high casualties. Withdrew to Ligny and assembled in the Church. A report written by an officer of "A" Company notes that the retreating companies were unable to move the wounded from the sunken road. Captain Bridgeman records the casualties as follows - Major Rickman and 6 men killed, Captain Lane, Lieutenant Foljambe and 345 other ranks were missing, almost all believed wounded and taken prisoner, Captains de Moleyns, Liddell, Morgan-Grenville, Lieutenant Coryton and 15 other ranks were wounded and reached Ligny church. Captain Bridgeman also notes that the 11th Brigade was clear of Ligny, and - "the great retreat had commenced."

Your Grandfather may have been one of the lucky ones to reach the church, otherwise he probably would have been captured. There is more info describing the retreat and I can do that tomorrow if you want.

Regards,

Dave

Fantatsic stuff Dave. There was no mention of being taken prisoner around the family camp fire. I wonder here the sunken road was. At least as well it seems he was in the Church.

a BIG thank you Dave

[lostinspace]

I found the relevent Le Cateau information in the 1916 Rifle Brigade Chronicle, I think Westlake got most of his material on 1 Rifle Bde. from it. Rather than transcribe it all I would rather e-mail the pages to you but I'm wondering if this is the material that Maurice sent you. There are about fifteen pages that covers the period from mobilization to the end of the retreat, let me know what you want me to do. Couldn't find any specific information on your grandfather, the officers are covered in detail for each year but not the enlisted men (unless they were awarded some type of honour).

Regards,

Dave

[sotonmate]

le cateau

Re-your post number 11.

The CESTRIAN sailed from Southampton on the 22 Aug 1914,arrived LE HAVRE 23,and your man would have gone by train to BUSIGNY,arriving there on the 24th,and probably marched to BRIASTRE on the 25th. There was a railhead in the Eastern Docks of Southampton (in via Gate 4) and the ship could have berthed at one of several places,from around the current Department of Oceanography (Southampton University),once an area from 24 Berth, and along the River Itchen Quays to Dock Head which was called 37 Berth,and also along the River Test Quays from 38 Berth to 49 Berth. It was a busy time so it would be hard to say where his ship left from. The Docks were a large commercial complex with much business to attend to even without the BEF traffic,and this was well before the Western Docks were built !

Netley Military Hospital actually took casualties from the same berths,they entrained in the Docks and were taken the short, 20 minute or so,journey to Netley,which had it's own rail station just adjacent to the main Hospital. Here a little reading for you on Netley:

http://www.qaranc.co.uk/netleyhospital.php

Sotonmate

[divadnosae]

I found the relevent Le Cateau information in the 1916 Rifle Brigade Chronicle, I think Westlake got most of his material on 1 Rifle Bde. from it. Rather than transcribe it all I would rather e-mail the pages to you but I'm wondering if this is the material that Maurice sent you. There are about fifteen pages that covers the period from mobilization to the end of the retreat, let me know what you want me to do. Couldn't find any specific information on your grandfather, the officers are covered in detail for each year but not the enlisted men (unless they were awarded some type of honour).

Regards,

Dave

Don’t recall seeing that but I know Maurice was kind enough to send me some war diaries and a map. I have seen quite a bit on the battle but as earlier it’s as much nitty gritty I can lay my hands on I am interested in so would love to see the chronicles please. For a layman like myself who is not into military speak, If I visit as planned on 26th August 1914 I would love to see as much as poss including streets that were walked.

I never had a chance to ask him anyting as I was so young and really only remember him in Hospital where he spent the last 4 years of his life. He probaly would have said nothing to me about it anyway like many. I remember him smoking in his hospital bed after striking the matchbox placed under his arm stump. I have over the last 13 years found out much about his life except "his war"., but I am getting there thanks to people on TGWF.

[divadnosae]

le cateau

Re-your post number 11.

The CESTRIAN sailed from Southampton on the 22 Aug 1914,arrived LE HAVRE 23,and your man would have gone by train to BUSIGNY,arriving there on the 24th,and probably marched to BRIASTRE on the 25th. There was a railhead in the Eastern Docks of Southampton (in via Gate 4) and the ship could have berthed at one of several places,from around the current Department of Oceanography (Southampton University),once an area from 24 Berth, and along the River Itchen Quays to Dock Head which was called 37 Berth,and also along the River Test Quays from 38 Berth to 49 Berth. It was a busy time so it would be hard to say where his ship left from. The Docks were a large commercial complex with much business to attend to even without the BEF traffic,and this was well before the Western Docks were built !

Netley Military Hospital actually took casualties from the same berths,they entrained in the Docks and were taken the short, 20 minute or so,journey to Netley,which had it's own rail station just adjacent to the main Hospital. Here a little reading for you on Netley:

http://www.qaranc.co...leyhospital.php

Sotonmate

Brilliant stuff just what I am looking for to help me map his exact journey. I have found a photo of Cestrian. Interesting about the train to BUSIGNY and not Le Cateau??

Was Netley Hossy near Netley Castle?

Thansk very much

Dave

[lostinspace]

If you can send me your email address (either over the forum or by PM) I will send you the info from the Chronicles.

Regards,

Dave

[sotonmate]

le cateau

Netley Castle was made out of stone from the nearby Netley Abbey, apparently one of our Kings decided that he would get the stone used from the rubble of the Abbey and make an edifice overlooking Southampton Water,The Abbey is on the inland side of the road which leads to the old Military Hospital site along Victoria Road,and the Castle is on the seaward side. In answer to your question the Hospital would have been about a mile away to the SE.

Reading some of the War Diaries for these early stages of the war these guys seem to have not been totally sure where they should be and there was a lot of marching around in reaction to the fluid situation. The destinations I quote to you are from War Diaries and are for the time just before it really kicked off,and within a day or two Le Cateau was the busy place to be (or not),so he only had 10 kms to march !

Sotonmate

[divadnosae]

le cateau

Netley Castle was made out of stone from the nearby Netley Abbey, apparently one of our Kings decided that he would get the stone used from the rubble of the Abbey and make an edifice overlooking Southampton Water,The Abbey is on the inland side of the road which leads to the old Military Hospital site along Victoria Road,and the Castle is on the seaward side. In answer to your question the Hospital would have been about a mile away to the SE.

Reading some of the War Diaries for these early stages of the war these guys seem to have not been totally sure where they should be and there was a lot of marching around in reaction to the fluid situation. The destinations I quote to you are from War Diaries and are for the time just before it really kicked off,and within a day or two Le Cateau was the busy place to be (or not),so he only had 10 kms to march !

Sotonmate

Thank you.

I had a street map look last night and googled it. I had never heard of the place, only theCastle.

The only reason I aked about Netly Castle is my late Uncle ex MN WW2 was in there in 1972 (Cancer) Now flast I belive.

[tomrich]

Hi, Does anyone have a detailed military map of the position of B Company 2/KOYLI on 26th August 1914 please? I am researching Thomas and William Duggan (KOYLI 10215 and 10890 respectively). Both were captured and I think that they may have been brothers. Many thanks, Richard Corfield

Map extract from the O.H. depicting the two positions of the day...

dave