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Remembered Today:

Provincial Cemetery, Loos


Tom Tulloch-Marshall

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall

Does anybody have >

# Any photograph(s) of this cemetery when it was known as Provincial Cemetery ?

# Any information as to why it was called Provincial Cemetery (by the Canadians ?).

# When and why it's name changed to Loos British Cemetery ? (circa 1920 or later).

# Any recorded reference to any man / men being buried in "Provincial Cemetery" at Loos ?

thanks - Tom

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall

Some cynic may think I'm bumping this back up in the vain hope that a second mention may jog a memory somewhere; - would I do such a thing ! :lol:

.................. No, I couldnt find anything either - which surprised me greatly seeing this cemetery came into existance mid 1917(*) and was "still" called Provincial Cemetery about mid / late 1919 at least. (* I cant veryfy when the name "Provincial Cemetery" was first used).

This isnt a small site, - nearly 3,000 burials. Somebody, somewhere, must know something ?!

Tom

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Michelle Young

Tom

Have you contacted Gilles at the museum in Loos? He is a member here so maybe a PM?

Michelle

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greatbeanbags

Hi Tom

My great uncle is buried & commemorated at Loos - old picture of the Cemetery etc. that is with family memorabilia is posted to show you. Don't know who sent it to my great grandmother & father but it commemorates his death in some official way. He was 17368 Pte. Alfonso William Vince & he served in the 1st Bn. Suffolk Regiment & was KIA on 3/10/15.

By the way - visited Varlet Farm a couple of weeks ago - just after you - my other great uncle was killed there - see his details in my signature & full story in my posts here.

I collect Fattorini medals etc. Have a brass 1915 On War Service badge of theirs plus the other 3 'official versions' mentioned in you article. Any views on the value of the 4 as set please? The 1914 version (probably Gaunt made) as is the 1915 enamel one & the 1916 brass 'broach' that still has it's original paper packaging & is low numbered. Have seen & read your article on these with real interest. I am trying to sell these items on the forum to enable me to finance the purchase of some sporting medals that I wish to buy. You can see images in one of my posts.

Clive :thumbsup:

post-51610-1274349597.jpg

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greatbeanbags

Alfonso in uniform

post-51610-1274354315.jpg

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greatbeanbags

Loos memorial as it is today

post-51610-1274354466.jpg

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greatbeanbags

Loos Memorial from Dud Corner Cemetry

post-51610-1274354741.jpg

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Michelle Young

Tom

Looking at Body density maps, I actually cant find a Provincial Cemetery marked. What I do see is Lens Canadian Cemetery No 1 on the road out of Loos towards Cite St Laurent which looks handy for the current Loos British. Have scanned and emailed to you.

Michelle

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall

Clive – thanks for posting the photo of your great-uncle Alfonso. (Just to clarify, Alfonso is commemorated on the Loos Memorial To The Missing at Dud Corner, not buried there. Provincial Cemetery, which is being discussed here, was several miles away to the south of Loos village).

Regards – Tom

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall
Tom

Looking at Body density maps, ........................ Have scanned and emailed to you.

Michelle

Michelle – Thanks for the attachment which you sent off-forum.

I have now retrieved my copy of the White Cross Atlas and cross-referencing that to the information which you sent, you are undoubtedly correct. – What is now called Loos British Cemetery is shown on the body density map and the WC Atlas as Lens Canadian Cemetery No 1. (The present day entrance to that cemetery being about map ref M.6.c.2.9.).

Intriguingly the body density map shows nothing about the position of “Provincial Cemetery, Loos”, yet it is shown and indexed as such in the WC Atlas. The atlas shows it to the western side of the Lens – Loos road, about one-third of the way from Lens Canadian Cemetery No 1 towards the centre of Loos. (The BD map has nothing anywhere near this point).

The more precise location of Provincial Cemetery, Loos, is about map ref M.6.a.7.3. – as you will see from the photo below (assuming the reference on the cemetery sign to be correct !).

This is intriguing; - apart from the WC Atlas and the postcard photo I can find no reference to this cemetery, yet is clearly there circa 1919 and possibly earlier & later, and by the looks of it, it wasn’t a small cemetery ………….. but it isn’t even mentioned in the Loos British Cemetery historical notes, and that may be the logical place that you might expect exhumations to have gone to.

Is this ringing any bells with anybody yet ?

Michelle – could you possible clarify the possible Loos contact ?

Thanks - Tom

post-108-1274727587.jpg

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Michelle Young

Plot thickens Tom! The lie of the land in the photo is suggestive of the current Loos British IIRC, but not marked on BD maps. Is that plot 2 in the photo? Shame that we can't see any of the names on the crosses as we could then cross reference! It says English Cemetery of Hill 70 on the card, nearest to that on the map would be Canadian Cemetery no 1 and 2, there are no cemeteries proper marked on Hill 70.

Contact is forum member Gilles

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...p?showuser=6212

Michelle

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Michelle Young

EUREKA!

Cemetery register I have just dug out being unsure if we had one says Loos British Cemetery (Long known as Loos Provisional Cemetery) is on the east side of the road from Loos to Lens, half a mile south of Loos church. it was begun by the Candian Corps in July, 1917 and the graves then made are contained in rows A and B of Plot 1 and row A of Plot 2. The remainder of the cemetery was formed after the Armistice by the concentration of 2,758 graves from the battlefields and smaller cemeteries over a wide area North and East of the village.

Crucially the bit about it being named as Provisional is omitted from the current CWGC website.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_detail...2300&mode=1

Michelle

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Bonjour

for me it is a "british communal cemetery" à Loos en gohelle near the Hill 70

in Loos three battle

1) may 9th 1915 french-german ( a german have build a cemetery with the french soldier but bombarded ..in 25 september)

2) september 25th 1915 british-german battle of loos ...

3) august 25th 1917 hill 70 canadians-german .....

this photographie is the british cemetery ...( rue roger salengro à Loos en gohelle), yesterday i read a register of this cemetery nothing word "provincial brith cemetery"

a+ gilles p

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall

Gilles – Thanks for your input, - you may be able to help further !?

Michelle – Slip of the finger on the keyboard – Provincial Cemetery, not “Provisional” (I’m confused enough as it is :huh: ).

I agree with both of you in that the photo looks like Loos British Cemetery, but I don’t think the small sign can be signifying Plot II. The photo (if it is Loos British Cemetery) looks to be taken from about the present day entrance on Rue Roger Salengro, looking south-eastwards, so the first plot on the right would be VI, VII, or X (etc). Plot II would be way off to the right.

This is a Google Earth link to the area, - Loos British Cemetery should be about the centre, just north of the A21.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie...mp;t=h&z=16

Below is the White Cross map for the area. The cemeteries marked are indexed as:-

# 303 & 304 – Canadian Cemeteries Number 1 & 2 Loos-en-Gohelle.

# 934 – Lens Canadian Cemetery Number 1.

# 1286 Provincial Cemetery, Loos.

You will see that 934 is in the correct position for Loos British Cemetery and that there is quite a distance from there to where Provincial Cemetery is shown.

Tom

post-108-1274971519.jpg

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall

Here are the locations on the trench map; M.6.a.7.3. being the map coordinates shown on the cemetery sign on the postcard. This does seem to roughly conform to what is illustrated on the White Cross Atlas. I cant recall the topography about that map reference, - is it possible that the view could conceivably be as seen in the photo ?

So ………….. Lens Canadian Cemetery Number 1, Provincial Cemetery Loos, and Loos British Cemetery ………… are they all one and the same, or were there really two cemeteries as shown in the WC Atlas and implied by the photograph ?

Gilles – do you know of any possible local source for information on “Provincial Cemetery” ?

Tom

post-108-1274971658.jpg

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bonjour

in this photo you can see a fosse 15 with the two pylon (tower bridge ...by british name in loos)

a long slag heap and front a photo a quarry of chalk ...near this quarry certainly a provincial cemetery ....

after a war the all coalworker are rebuilding ...and this cemetery moved a place ...i suppose ...

gilles

post-6212-1274978873.jpg

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Michelle Young

Not a slip Tom- the old register says provisional.

Michelle

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Tom Tulloch-Marshall
Not a slip Tom- the old register says provisional.

Michelle

Michelle - Thank goodness for that - really ! :) .......... because if the register for Loos British Cemetery had originally said "Provincial" then - well how could the photo and the White Cross entry be explained, unless there had been some monumental foul-up, an explanation for which would be hard to imagine. I do wonder though why IWGC would have dubbed Lens Canadian Cemetery No 1 as "Provisional" rather than keeping the name which was in place as of 1919 ? - unless it should have been a lower case "p" and it was so titled as a temporary measure whilst they finalised cemetery plans for the area ?

I must admit that at the outset I thought that the photo showed Loos British Cemetery in an earlier guise. The White Cross Atlas says no, and Gilles says that ".. a long slag heap and front a photo a quarry of chalk ...near this quarry certainly a provincial cemetery ...." (Nice photo Gilles. I guess it is from 1914 or 1915, before the British took over the Loos front ?).

Going back to the trench map above, the chalk pit is marked essentially where you would expect it to be and I'd imagine that Provincial Cemetery was established (when ?) somewhere behind where the photographer stood to take Gilles' photo).

It looks as though there were quite a number of burials here as of 1919 and I wonder why they exhumed it, - possibly because the decision had been made to use Lens Canadian Cemetery No 1 as the basis for a major concentration cemetery (renamed as Loos British Cemetery) and Provincial Cemetery was "too close" to leave in situ ?

If anybody has any period photos of Provincial British Cemetery / Lens Canadian Cemetery No 1 / Loos British Cemetery (or named as "Provisional" Cemetery) then I'd be very pleased to see them. Also - any reference to any man / men having been buried in Provincial Cemetery.

Tom

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  • 8 years later...

This has had me thinking for a couple of days, whilst searching for unrelated material I flick past a Grave Registration Report for Provincial Cemetery, Loos and of course I'd never heard the name before, where was it? A quick google and I'm here, then I realise the quandary has been answered... or has it? 

Not sure if this ever went any further Tom but I have got a few answers and a couple of questions if you don't mind me resurrecting an old thread.

 

Jon

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  • 2 months later...
On 17/05/2010 at 06:46, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

Does anybody have >

 

# Any recorded reference to any man / men being buried in "Provincial Cemetery" at Loos ?

 

Tom:

 

I am working on the Canadian cases in the Loos British Cemetery. I can give you what you need for any of the Canadians. The ones I have checked so far are in this topic about Loos:

 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/268423-loos-british-cemetery/

 

Richard

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  • 7 months later...

A tad tardy, I realise...but in researching for a student on a tour, I came across a concentration/exhumation report that says J Christie 11724, 2/Scots Gds was in Provincial. The map ref for the original burial is: sheet 44a. G.5.d.4.9

Doesn't that put it some way N of Loos, and just W of the Bassee  Rd, around 'The Window' and Cite St Elie?

First post - please be gentle...

 

 

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Rookie error. Just checked Bn diary, and the bombing attack of 17/10/15 (Christie's death) is SE of 'Big Willie'. From Fosse Trench towards Slag Alley. So, the previous post does make sense, doesn't it? (phew).

That puts it closer to today's Quarry Cemetery.

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