UNIFORM IDENTIFICATION PLEASE

[Susan Horton]

Would someone kindly be able to identify this uniform please. He was born in 1891, I am not sure of his age here but I suspect it is around the commencement of WW1. If it is of any help, he lived in Bethnal Green and after that Walthamstow. The photograph was taken in Walthamstow. There is no surviving war record for him (Alfred Wills).

Thank you

Sue

[Tinhat47]

I believe the cuffs on his uniform are called "Lancer cuffs," so it would make sense that was in a Lancer unit or at least a mounted one.

[Susan Horton]

Thank you for that very quick response.

[Tinhat47]

I found a MIC for just one Arthur Wills who served in a mounted unit -- the Devonshire Yeomanry. I'm assuming that's not him so perhaps I'm wrong about him being a mounted soldier.

[Blackblue]

Looks a bit like Ordnance Corps badge.

[Steven Broomfield]

I know little of collar badges, but is it Essex Regiment?

[Grovetown]

I believe the cuffs on his uniform are called "Lancer cuffs," so it would make sense that was in a Lancer unit or at least a mounted one.

Frayed Knot. Red infantry tunics of this period featured this cuff.

Best wishes,

GT.

[Graham Stewart]

He's a Territorial too and not a regular.

Points of note;-

The shoulder strap which is rounded at the collar, but with metal shoulder titles. Known loosely as a "1909" pattern jacket, regulars still had embroided white worsted titles at this time, whereas these jackets had a plain shoulder strap to which titles could be added.

Secondly brown leather belt with brass buckle. Only ever seen worn by Territorials as regulars wore the Slade Wallace belt.

[MBrockway]

For what it's worth those look like General Service buttons to me.

Mark

[madtaffy]

Hi

they look like AOC to me aswell

Ian

[badjez]

What about 2 East Anglian Bde, RFA Ammunition Coln TF?

I think these were AOC men attached to RFA so would have worn AOC insignia.

This Ammunition Coln was recruited with A, D, E & F Sub-Section- Stratford (with 1 Bty); B Sub-Section- Romford (with 2 Bty); C Sub-Section- Grays (with 3 Bty).

Whilst none of these are Walthamstow, they are still Metropolitan Essex and only a few miles further South.

I don't know of any AOC TF units existing elsewhere in the vicinity.

Stephen

[4thGordons]

Secondly brown leather belt with brass buckle. Only ever seen worn by Territorials as regulars wore the Slade Wallace belt.

Graham,

Is this belt different from the 1903 Pattern Bandolier Equipment leather belt? It seems to resemble it.

Chris

[headgardener]

What about 2 East Anglian Bde, RFA Ammunition Coln TF?

I think these were AOC men attached to RFA so would have worn AOC insignia.

I'm not sure that you're right about this, mate. There may have been some AOC men attached to it, but it was basically an artillery unit staffed by artillery men.

Looks like an AOC badge to me. This uniform can be seen right up to the outbreak of war, so photo probably taken around 1909-1913.

Interesting thought about Essex Regt collars, I'm not too sure about that side of things, though. Was it a shield? I thought it was a small version of the cap badge (wreath, etc). Can anyone put us right on this? It looks about the right shape for an AOC shield. So, probably a TF Ordnance unit.

[Graham Stewart]

Perhaps not a good example, but this a Drummer of a Northumbeland Fusiliers Territorial Battalion, wearing the same brown leather belt as mentioned in my previous post and I also have one of the same belts in my collection.

[Graham Stewart]

If I remember correctly the uniform for the Army Ordnance Corps at this time was dark blue with white facings, whereas the jacket being worn by Alfred is the scarlet infantry one.

[headgardener]

How can you tell? It looks all black and white to me.................

Seriously, how can you tell?

[Andrew Upton]

Secondly brown leather belt with brass buckle. Only ever seen worn by Territorials as regulars wore the Slade Wallace belt.

Perhaps not a good example, but this a Drummer of a Northumbeland Fusiliers Territorial Battalion, wearing the same brown leather belt as mentioned in my previous post and I also have one of the same belts in my collection.

I'm sorry, but the belt is in fact the belt off the 1903 Pattern leather equipment, widely worn by many units over many years:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/pic...lts_straps.html

[Graham Stewart]

Gone to the link provided but a photo of the belt won't appear. From my collection of over a 1,000 NF period photo's in all cases where scarlet is worn the leather belt with buckle only ever seems to appear worn by Territorials, whereas those showing regular troops show the Slade Wallace.

The other clue here is the jacket, this particular pattern worn by the infantry always had the white worsted embroided titles. The scarlet jacket with white piping but plain shoulder straps and without worsted titles was introduced for Territorials c.1909, allowing them to wear metal titles with it. Again I have one in my collection but am having trouble reproducing them here.

In 1911 a new pattern jacket, with plain pointed shoulder straps in facing colours was introduced for wear by regulars, where metal titles could be worn, this jacket never migrated itself to Territorials until after the war, who continued to wear the 1909 pattern as pictured above.

[headgardener]

So, Essex Rgt it is, I guess. Can't think of any other possibilities.

Anyone got any more thoughts on the regiment?

[4thGordons]

Gone to the link provided but a photo of the belt won't appear. From my collection of over a 1,000 NF period photo's in all cases where scarlet is worn the leather belt with buckle only ever seems to appear worn by Territorials, whereas those showing regular troops show the Slade Wallace.

The link works for me.

I am not doubting the wearing of the leather belt.... just asking if it is a distinctive pattern.

Chris

[Graham Stewart]

This demonstrates what to look for in a regulars tunic pre-1911 - the shoulder strap is as show in the first post but the titles were always in white worsted cotton for those in scarlet.

[Graham Stewart]

The same jacket but adopted for wear by Territorial c.1909 with a plain strap with which to add titles.

[Graham Stewart]

The new pattern shoulder strap taken into wear on the 1911 pattern jacket for wear by regulars. You don't see this jacket worn by Territorials even by 1914.

[Andrew Upton]

The link works for me.

I am not doubting the wearing of the leather belt.... just asking if it is a distinctive pattern.

Indeed - saying "Only ever seen worn by Territorials as regulars wore the Slade Wallace belt" gives a completely erroneous view of it's use and issue, and only confuses things. As per the Kharkee Web website, these were still on Army stores/use as late as the 1990's.

[Graham Stewart]

Andrew thanks for pointing that site on webbing as it's very good and will be keeping it in my favourites. Just wish there was an equivalent site for uniforms which can be a bit more complex.