Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

wesleycrabb

MC & MM WINNERS.

Recommended Posts

wesleycrabb

Hello All,

Does anyone know how many soldiers were awarded both the Miltary Medal AND the Military Cross?

If an OR won the MM and was subsequently commissioned, would the award 'become' a MC, or would he have to win the award again?

Many Thanks

Toodleoo

wes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CT-Guards

MM's must run well into the 100's of thousands I would have thought!

I can give you approximate totals for the Coldstream. (when in front of my material this evening).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wesleycrabb

Hello,

I am looking for the number of men who were awarded both, not men who won either.

Sorry for any confusion.

Wes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CT-Guards

My mistake, I can't read!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unknownsoldier

You'd need to search the MC awards, as the MC was nearly always awarded later (unless for some heinous reason he was Reduced to the ranks....), so you can pretty much guarantee the MM is awarded then the MC.... so the MC "lists" should give you the info you need...

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NeilEvans

There was thread on this a week or so ago. Although i cant find it.

Neil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27thBN

Not a lot as the MM came out in march 1916 and then the man would have to get a commission and then win an MC .When one of theses MC,MM groups comes up big cash is asked and they still sell very fast i got one 10 weeks ago and from seeing it listed to phoning 2 people had wanted to put a hold but the dealer wouldnt as it had only just been listed ,so i got it just as 2 the numbers very scarce but how i have not done the work on the LG but from services of army officers 1920 book all 2200 pages i only found about 120 or so with both. Cheers MC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chris_Baker

It was not necessary to be commissioned in order to be awarded the Military Cross. Warrant Officers were also eligible. There is also one odd case of a Corporal (45th Royal Fusiliers) with MC and Bar won in North Russia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27thBN
It was not necessary to be commissioned in order to be awarded the Military Cross. Warrant Officers were also eligible. There is also one odd case of a Corporal (45th Royal Fusiliers) with MC and Bar won in North Russia.

Yes Chris to true (missed that one drat) .Although the case of the corporal is very very odd to say the least .How in a month of Sundays did he get an MC and Bar :blink: :blink: .With regard to Warrant officers MC to them are scarce as you know .I looked and searched for over 3 years to find a MC,MM to ex ranker infantry to officer with any citation that was not half bad.Just using that one example scarce but approximately issued in that combo ? .Comes down the old saying what something costs does not reflect on what its worth .Dealers prices are pretty spot on as to how rare the group is generally .

MC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rflory

Thirty-four officers of the Royal Artillery received the MC/MM during the Great War in the following combinations:

MC/MM: 29

MC/MM/French Croix de Guerre/Belgian Croix de Guerre: 1

MC/DCM/MM: 1

MC and Bar/MM: 1

MC and Bar/MM/US DSC: 1

MC and Bar/MM and Bar: 1

Regards, Dick Flory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
charlesmessenger
Yes Chris to true (missed that one drat) .Although the case of the corporal is very very odd to say the least .How in a month of Sundays did he get an MC and Bar :blink: :blink: .With regard to Warrant officers MC to them are scarce as you know .I looked and searched for over 3 years to find a MC,MM to ex ranker infantry to officer with any citation that was not half bad.Just using that one example scarce but approximately issued in that combo ? .Comes down the old saying what something costs does not reflect on what its worth .Dealers prices are pretty spot on as to how rare the group is generally .

MC

The case that Chris has mentioned concerns Cpl Adam Stewart. He was originally a BSM in a Motor Machine Gun battery and as such won an MC on the Somme. He was then commissioned into the MGC (Motors) and awarded a bar to his MC. Sadly he was then court-martialled for issuing dud cheques. He had to forfeit his commission and was sentenced to 3 years hard labour. He also had to surrender his medals. Discharged from goal in May 1919 he enlisted in 45 RF and went to Russia, where his distinguished service was rewarded by his medals being returned to him. In 1923 he re-enlisted as the Territorials, but the war Office refused to allow him a commission.

Thus his MCs were awarded to him as a warrant officer and officer and not as a junior NCO.

Charles M

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron Clifton

It is said that, in the Great War, one British soldier in four was a gunner. If that was so, Dick Flory's figure of 34 MC + MM awards to the Royal Artillery is broadly consistent with MC's estimate of about 120 in all. Bearing in mind that his source was published in about 1922 and only included surviving recipients, I think a ball-park figure of about 150 seems about right. I for one don't fancy trawling through some 40,000 MC awards, including bars, in the London Gazette to get a more accurate figure!

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IPT

What do the 96 Canadians above indicate statistically?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
regimentalrogue
What do the 96 Canadians above indicate statistically?

For comparison, the numbers for the CEF as given in Blatherwick's Canadian Army; Honours, Decorations, Awards 1902-1958 are:

MMs to the CEF - 12,341

MCs to the CEF - 2885

MC, MM combinations listed - 96

So, less than 1% of MM recipients went on to receive a MC. And a little over 3% of MC recipients had previously received the MM.

Except for a few identified as Sergeants Major, the remainder are men who received their MMs as soldiers and later commissioned, receiving their MCs as officers.

(Reposted from this thread.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IPT

Interesting. Thanks for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cornwall

Of interest gentlemen, you should look up Sub Lt Sidney Walker RNVR Drake Battalion, RND. He won the MM in 1915 with 7 battalion DCLI was commissioned Feb 1917 and won the MC and Bar during the Battles of Arras 1918 and Canal du Nord . He also managed to be badly injured three times, once minorly and still survive. One of many, many brave young men!

Best wishes

Oppy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Philip Wilson
It is said that, in the Great War, one British soldier in four was a gunner. If that was so, Dick Flory's figure of 34 MC + MM awards to the Royal Artillery is broadly consistent with MC's estimate of about 120 in all. Bearing in mind that his source was published in about 1922 and only included surviving recipients, I think a ball-park figure of about 150 seems about right. I for one don't fancy trawling through some 40,000 MC awards, including bars, in the London Gazette to get a more accurate figure!

Ron

Ron -

'Honour the Officers - Honours and Awards to British and Dominion and Colonial Officers during the First World War' by Michael Maton is the logical starting point, especially if it could be turned into a fully searchable database to provide the numbers of different awards (DSO's, MCs etc) per Unit, Corps etc.

Does anybody in this forum know the author Michael Maton?

If so then they might wish to explore with him how feasible it would be to create a fully searchable database, especially as his book was only published in 2009. Or has somebody already constructed a fully searchable database of these awards?

I would not want to spend hours trawling through some 40,000 MCs to find what proportion relate to any unit. For sometimes the answers can be found elsewhere.

Awards need to be seen in ratio to the number of officers who served with a particular unit and the length of time the unit was present in an active war zone. For example the Warwickshire Yeomanry served overseas from April 1915 till November 1918:

2 DSO's and bars, 7 DSOs, 16 MC's, 2 DCM's, 9 MM's and 13 MSM's - the details can be found in Adderley's book The Warwickshire Yeomanry in the Great War in Appendix 2.

Appendix 1 lists all the officers who served with 1/1st, 2/1st and 3/1st WKY Regiments during the Great War - 130 Officers of which some 80 Officers saw active War Service overseas, 25 of these received one or more gallantry awards. There are no actual MC/MM combinations for WKY listed.

The 1/1st Regiment served in Egypt, Gallipoli, Palestine and finally in France from August 1918. The 2/1st remained in the UK and supplied fit men for France in March 1918. The 3/1st was absorbed in early 1917 into the 5th Reserve Cavalry Regiment which provided drafts for the 1/1st Regiment.

Philip Wilson

Warwickshire Yeomanry Museum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
per ardua per mare per terram
If an OR won the MM and was subsequently commissioned, would the award 'become' a MC, or would he have to win the award again?

The MC and MM were separate awards and a man could be awarded both. His kept his MM if commissioned (or promoted to warrant rank) and could be awarded an MC if recommended. It was not automatic for someone to be commissioned (far from it), even if they were awarded a VC - let alone the MM. Percentages of men who were awarded the MM who then went on to win an MC are dependent on the number of men who were promoted to the relevant ranks.

Similarly the DCM did not 'become' a DSO if the man was commissioned after being awarded the former.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chats27

Hi All, I'm putting together a list of those who won the MC and MM and so far I'm up to 481 names. This includes those with other awards but they must have a MC and MM.

Regards

Ray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DesK161

The Coin and Medal News published a list of these individuals when I was a mere child back in the 1980s. Will see if I still have the issue it came out in.

Des

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27thBN
Hi All, I'm putting together a list of those who won the MC and MM and so far I'm up to 481 names. This includes those with other awards but they must have a MC and MM.

Regards

Ray

Hi what are you using as a start reference the LG ,services of officers 1920 ,Honor the officers or something else .

MC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chats27

Hi, Reference being used are - Internet, London Gazette, Honour the Officers (however this does not give other awards as DCM MM etc), Medal Index Cards, services of officers 1920, the pages from Medal News back in the 80's, Regimental Historys and Army Honours and Awards.

The services of officers 1920 and Regimental history's I can only access when I visit the Aldershot Military Library.

I trying to locate a copy of services of officers 1920 and also if anyone has the London Gazette index for WW1.

I have also possibly found two more Canadian's that I need to confirm and 2 British (1 now confirmed) that I'm working on.

So a total of 482 with a possible 3 more.

Any pointers please, would be most welcome. Even if you want to list those you all already know and I can confirm.

Thank you

Ray

medal-mounting@hotmail.co.uk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...