Query on SPR. and a WR designation, Royal Engineers

[diggermann]

Hi,

I am hoping that I can make use of this Forum’s collective knowledge to shed some light on a couple of queries I have about my Great-Grandfather, one Sydney Nicholson who served in the Royal Engineers during WWI.

I have his British War and Victory medals, and his medal card (but unfortunately no other papers) which gives rise to my two queries.

Firstly, his rank is noted as “SPR.” Does having the “.” After the “R” have any significance or does it just mean he was a Sapper? I’ve only seen the “SPR” version before now.

Secondly his two Regimental numbers are given as 201421 and then WR260198. I’m assuming that the second number was allocated during the renumbering of 1918, and that the WR relates to Waterways and Railways. Does anyone have any idea as to a more specific unit within that section that his number may suggest he belonged to?

Many many thanks in advance for any help on this,

Bruce

[Terry_Reeves]

The full stop is of no significance, it means Sapper on both counts. He was a member of a railway unit of some sort but it is not possible to say which one from his number. There was a renumbering of many of the transportation units in 1918, when they were given new numbers with the WR prefix.

TR

[diggermann]

The full stop is of no significance, it means Sapper on both counts. He was a member of a railway unit of some sort but it is not possible to say which one from his number. There was a renumbering of many of the transportation units in 1918, when they were given new numbers with the WR prefix.

TR

Many thanks Terry for clearing that up. The one family story that I have hints that my Great-Grandfather worked on the railways before the war so this would tie in nicely with his Unit placement within the RE.

Thanks again,

Bruce

[theluddite]

Bruce,

My grandfather also served in the R.E., seemingly with the Railway Operating Division (ROD). I am led to believe that this was concerned with the running, construction and maintenance of the Broad gauge railway (rather than the narrow gauge railways that were also used in WW1).

My grandfather originaly volunteered in the 8th Btn. Yorks & Lancs Regmt. at the begining of September 1914 but as the war progressed and the need for an efficient method of distributing supplies across France increased, The RE carried out a 'sweep' of all units for men with the requesite skills and they were transfered to the R.E.

My grandfathers RE number was WR 254537. He had been a blacksmith at a coal mine and had also worked in a railway spring works prior to the outbreak of hostilites. He arrived in France in at the end of February 1916.

He was initially attached to the 120 Company ROD in March 1916 and eventually transfered across to them at the end of June 1916. Previous postings on the forum indicate that a sweep of the whole Army was made for suitably qualified men at around this time and subsequent sweeps may well have occured subsequently. As your grandfather's number (WR 260198) is considerably larger numerically this may loggically indicate that it was in a later sweep.

I hope that this may be of some assistance.

Theluddite.

[diggermann]

Bruce,

My grandfather also served in the R.E., seemingly with the Railway Operating Division (ROD). I am led to believe that this was concerned with the running, construction and maintenance of the Broad gauge railway (rather than the narrow gauge railways that were also used in WW1).

My grandfather originaly volunteered in the 8th Btn. Yorks & Lancs Regmt. at the begining of September 1914 but as the war progressed and the need for an efficient method of distributing supplies across France increased, The RE carried out a 'sweep' of all units for men with the requesite skills and they were transfered to the R.E.

My grandfathers RE number was WR 254537. He had been a blacksmith at a coal mine and had also worked in a railway spring works prior to the outbreak of hostilites. He arrived in France in at the end of February 1916.

He was initially attached to the 120 Company ROD in March 1916 and eventually transfered across to them at the end of June 1916. Previous postings on the forum indicate that a sweep of the whole Army was made for suitably qualified men at around this time and subsequent sweeps may well have occured subsequently. As your grandfather's number (WR 260198) is considerably larger numerically this may loggically indicate that it was in a later sweep.

I hope that this may be of some assistance.

Theluddite.

Many thanks for this! I've been trying to put the various bits of information together that I have and I was starting to wonder if it made sense. Basically on my Great Grandfather's Death Cert (which I have only just obtained) his profession is noted as being a 'Night Railway Porter' which doesn't in the first instance suggest he had the prerequiste skills as a sapper in the R.E.. However your info has stirred some more the collective family memories and it now seems that he worked on several railway lines across the country prior to the outbreak of the War, possibly in an engineering capacity, and that he was invalided out of the R.E. in 1918. This could account for the change in jobs on the railways after the war leading up to his death.

This has really helped me to understand what I have managed to find out so far, thank you so much!

Bruce

[MartinThwaite]

Hi Bruce,

My great uncle Pat Tarmey, a Lancashire/Yorkshire Railway reserve shunter pre war, was swept up from 10th Bn RWF in 1916 whilst serving in France. He qualified as a RE Engine Driver in Sep 1916 and transferred to the Railway Operating Division RE. Strange thing is though on some docs after he died in France in Dec 1916 he is referred to as Spr (Sapper), Pte(RWF attached RE) and even Pioneer!! However his rank on his BW & V medals is Spr.

His name appears on the memorial in Victoria Station, Manchester and now on the new memorial in Nelson, Lancashire also the Brierfield memorial just outside Barrowford. Definately not forgotten - resting in Janval Cemetery Dieppe.

Regards,

Martin

[Terry_Reeves]

Martin

It is not unusual to find men in the ROD holding their previous rank and regiment for a while after they had been transferred. Equally, he may well have held the rank of pioneer for a while when the transfer was completed, until the Corps were satisfied about his skill level. Interestingly, in 1917, there was a huge expansion of the transportation organisation which saw thousands of railwaymen conscripted from their railway jobs in the UK. Skilled railwaymen appear to have been given the rank of Sapper automatically, on receipt of a certificate from their employer, although instances can be found prior to this.

TR

[MartinThwaite]

Martin

It is not unusual to find men in the ROD holding their previous rank and regiment for a while after they had been transferred. Equally, he may well have held the rank of pioneer for a while when the transfer was completed, until the Corps were satisfied about his skill level. Interestingly, in 1917, there was a huge expansion of the transportation organisation which saw thousands of railwaymen conscripted from their railway jobs in the UK. Skilled railwaymen appear to have been given the rank of Sapper automatically, on receipt of a certificate from their employer, although instances can be found prior to this.

TR

Hello Terry,

Many thanks for your info - as an aside I see you come from Coventry; my grandfather died of wounds on 7 Dec 18 in Coventry & Warwickshire Hospital. Is it still there?

Regards,

Martin

[Terry_Reeves]

Martin

Part of the building still stands, but it is now closed apart from a walk-in centre. Parts of it were destroyed in an air raid in WW2. I think I can get some photographs of the inside of the building, taken in WW1 though. PM me you email address and I will see what I can do next week,.

TR

[TimQ]

Hi Terry, my great grandfather Charles Quantrill was invalided home as a Royal West Kent in 1914 and then went out to France again as a Royal Engineer in May 1917 with the number 284811. I';m struggling to find out what unit he was assigned to, he was a bricklayer before the war. Does his regimental number give you a clue to his unit? Thanks

[TimQ]

Terry, I've just a medal roll record for a Charles Quantrill with the same RE regimental number in the Lancs Fort Tramway company. My grandfather had no connection to Lancashire as far as I know and the details on the card show a different enlistment and discharge date. What are the chances of two Charles Quantrills being given the same regimental number or has my grandfather been mixed up with another Charles Quantrill? The mystery deepens... Any help or advice would be gratefully received!

[JulianR]

Tim,

 

It is possibly a clerical error, and that it refers to a different man.

 

I suspect that your grandfather as a bricklayer would have been sent to one of the Railway Construction Companies R.E., rather than the operating Coys.

 

Someone in an earlier post said that he did not think that having been a night porter would have qualified him as a Sapper, the Operating Coys needed what the Railways called Traffic men, i.e. ticket collectors, stationmasters etc. just as much as engine drivers and firemen to ensure that the whole system worked

 

Julian

[TimQ]

Thanks for that Julian, I'll have to investigate further.

Tim

[Terry_Reeves]

On 08/11/2018 at 12:30, TimQ said:

Terry, I've just a medal roll record for a Charles Quantrill with the same RE regimental number in the Lancs Fort Tramway company. My grandfather had no connection to Lancashire as far as I know and the details on the card show a different enlistment and discharge date. What are the chances of two Charles Quantrills being given the same regimental number or has my grandfather been mixed up with another Charles Quantrill? The mystery deepens... Any help or advice would be gratefully received!

Tim

 

I missed this. I think the  confusion may arise with the Lancashire Fortress Company who had their pre-war HQ at Tramway Rd, Aigburth , Liverpool.  I am not entirely sure he was with  a tramway company. You can find the history here:

 

http://tinyurl.com/ybpo8z32

 

You will note the change of title in 1917 which coincides with his transfer from the RWK. That narrows it down to 555 Field Company and 549 Field Company, the former  in Palestine and Egypt and the latter with the BEF.

 

War diaries  here:

 

http://tinyurl.com/y84txf8r

 

http://tinyurl.com/yd8v42s5  

 

The last one has not been digitised yet unfortunately

 

Hope this helps

 

TR

 

There is another Charles Quintrill who served with 9 Norfolk Regiment, later transferring to the RE with the numbers 307184 and WR276184 - a transportation troops number.  

Edited 8 December , 2018 by Terry_Reeves