Turkish Camel Corps

[domsim]

I was wondering if there was a Turkish/Ottoman equivalent to the Imperial Camel Corps? If so are their any bilbliographical references for them and where they operated?

Did they use Beduoin recruits or Beduoin levies to patrol desert areas?

[Robert Dunlop]

Beduoin were used as spys and for other tasks. It was not uncommon for individuals to be in the pay of both sides. The leakage of information to the British via this route led to a major clampdown on border crossings when the Ottoman Army retreated out of Sinai.

I have come across a mule-mounted infantry regiment and occasional photographs of officers riding camels. Mostly, the photographs show camels either as pack animals or with the dreaded cacolet. I am not aware of a camel corps equivalent, though no doubt some auxillary troops used camels.

Robert

[Guest stevenbec]

Interesting Mate,

I did a quick look and there are a number of mentions of Turkish Camelry.

The main one to hand is at the battle of Rafa where the 31st Turkish Regt was in postion and were suported by some Camelry and a four gun battery.

Also while at the Battle of Amman the Turks were reinforced by a Mule Mountain Bn.

So how big were the Camelry is unknown purhaps they were just some soldiers from the 31st Regt mounted on camels for patrol work.

S.B

[Nick]

I recall reading that a body of turkish camelry (soory no idea of size!) formed part of von Kressensteins attack on Oghratina and Qatiya (Katia) in 1916. However, I have no idea if this was a pukka unit or more mercenary/bedouin in make up.

It's probably the same guys who were at Rafa.

Nick

[domsim]

Thanks for the replies, I was idly gazing at my book shelf and saw my copy of the Handbook of the Turkish Army 1916 (doh! what a great memory I have!)

A quick flick through the OOB came up with the following:

VIIIth army corps:

Corps troops:

Camel Corps (battalion 600 strong) (3 Camel Corps battalions have been formed, one (600 men) reaching Baghdad in September [1915], another in November. The third, composed of adventurers of all (Moslem) nationalities, at Bir es Saba in January 1916.

These troops were arbitrarily numbered by the British as:

Camel Battalion No.1; Formed in the winter of 1914-15. Engaged on the canal, March-may 1915. Arrived at Baghdad, September 1915 (See above).

Camel Battalion No.2 O.C. Ali Pasha. Arrived at Baghdad, November 1915 (See above)

Camel Battalion No.3: 'The Moslem adventurers' (See above).

It also mentions Camel Corps troops in Arabia but I can't find them in the OOB. (probably gone blind stupid again!)

Any further elaboration of this would be great

[Robert Dunlop]

This from the 'Ordre de Bataille of the Turkish Army' published in 1915 by the Intelligence Department of the General Staff, Cairo:

Turkish IVth Army - 1 battalion camelry (500 strong)

22nd Division - 2 squadrons mounted on mules and camels

The contents of this document have to be treated with caution but this squares with your posting.

Robert

[michaeldr]

I recall reading that a body of turkish camelry (soory no idea of size!) formed part of von Kressensteins attack on Oghratina and Qatiya (Katia) in 1916. However, I have no idea if this was a pukka unit or more mercenary/bedouin in make up.

Nick

I don’t know how much you can tell/infer from the att pic

But according to the caption it shows

“A Turkish caravan leaves camp after the raid on El-Qatiya in the western Sinai, end of April 1916”

It definitely shows a camel caravan, however whether or not they constitute an equivalent to the Camel Corps is another matter

The index shows the photograph to be from Fritz Groll’s album which was deposited by B. J. Kedar with the Jewish National and University Library Jerusalem.

Fritz Groll was the head of the photography and survey unit of the German Squadron 300

Regards

Michael D.R.

ps: The nose to tail file suggests to me a "pukka unit" rather than one "mercenary/bedouin in make up" as you put it.

Edited 28 May , 2004 by michaeldr

[Guest stevenbec]

Its funny you should mention this piture.

During my reseach for a book on the Camel Corps I have received many photos from relatives of soldiers who served there.

These photos are of the soldier and or his mates mounted on camels most often in front of the pryimids.

Now a closer look shows they are in fact not Camel Corps soldiers, just a soldier on a camel, a photo that was taken in there thousands since then to now.

I beleive you can still get this done if you go there.

So I always look for some provernace on the photos now before taking them as a Came Corps soldier.

S.B

[domsim]

Ferreted out some more info. on the Camel Corps

David Nicolle in his Osprey book "Lawrence and the Arab Revolts" p.4

'When the Ottoman army made its thrust against the Suez Canal early in 1915 it did so with a force of only 20,000 men, including two companies of the largely Arab Ottoman Camel Corps under Sami Bey........The Ottomans attempted another advance in the spring of 1916 during which the Camel Corps performed well, capturing a substantial part of a British cavalry regiment at outposts of Qatiya and Ughratina on 23 April.'

I presume the the battalion involved at Qatiya was Camel Battalion No.3 'The Moslem Adventurers' since the other 2 battalions were redeployed to Baghdad in late 1915. Michael's photograph may therefore be of the Camel Battalion No.3.

This may also be the battalion from which the Arabs switched sides to the Hashemite forces during the Arab Revolt to form the Camel Corps of the Northern Arab Army(?)

[Skipman]

Attached is from a report in the Headquarters, Imperial Camel Brigade War Diary 23/5/1917

 

Mike

[Guest]

Mate,

 

As you can see time has gone on since this was first started.

 

Yes the Ottomans raised at lest four Camel Regts during the war.

 

These were all mixed up and had a mixed history due to the lack of suitable riding camels.

 

As I said at lest four Camel Regt raised, these are possibly;

 

1st Camel R    Formed Jan/Feb 1915 in Syria - Sinai to Baghdad Iraq Sept 1915 at battle of Ctesiphon Nov 1915 posiblt to Palestine 1916/17    13th Corps - 1915    1st Camel (Hecin) Regt or Bn            1st Camel Regt (Hecin) + Cml MG Co     LtCol Sadik (1915) & Josef Bischoff (G)  1Co - Lt Suphi Nuri (ileri)     formed 23 officers 565 men 618 Hacin (Camels for riding) 114 camel for carrying 42 cavalry horses 1 Mountain artillary and 1 MG platoon of 3x Camel Co's 1xMG Co att 1 Canal Exp Force 6-15 to Baghdad 9-15 arrived Sept 1915 shown Allied reports Nov 1915 2x Camel Regts (1st & 2nd Regts) at Ctesiphon 22-11-15 (accounts 400 men) possibly rtn Palestine 1917 Turks shown to Hicaz EF (3x camel co's & MG Co) - shown June - July 1917 Allied reports 4th Army - Camel Bn (500 men) + June 1917 Camel Co (150 men) & July 1917 Camel Co (200 men) att 20th Corps + Camel Co (150 men) att 22nd Corps + att Camel Co (150 men) 3rd Cav Div June 1917 - shown Feb to July 1918 3rd Cav Div 1Co Camel Corps (100 men) and Aug 1918 Camel Co (375 men) to Sept 1918 camel Co (100 men) - shown May - Sept 1918 att Comp Div - Camel Co (50 men)                1-5Bn Camel supply (Jan 1915)

 

2nd Camel R    Formed June 1915 - to Baghdad Iraq Nov 1915 at battle of Ctesiphon Nov 1915 to Gaza 1916        2nd Camel (Hecin) Regt or Bn            2nd Camel (Hecin) Regt     Maj Mehmet Atif Bey (Atesdagli) & Ali Pasha    shown Allied reports arrived Baghdad Nov 1915 2x Camel Regts (1st & 2nd Regts) at Ctesiphon 22-11-15 (accounts 400 men) shown Allied reports Feb 1917 called 2nd Camel Regt at Gaza commanded by Hassan Iskander Bey sent company to Hassana under Lt Kasim Efendi and Nekhl under Lt Fouad Efendi while Turkish account say 2nd Camel Regt (Camel Raiders) at Medina        1M/Bty        

 

3rd Camel R    Formed July-Aug 1915 at Damascus shown Handbook formed Jan 1916 in Sinai possibly to Medina 1916/17         (3rd) Camel (Hecin) Regt or Bn            (3rd) Camel (Hecin) Regt (Camel Raider Bn)    possibly Halid Bey 2Co - Capt Sirri - Capt Süreyya Bey KIA 23-4-16 battle of Katya in Sinai  2Co - Lt Halet & Lt Memduh & Lt Yakup Robenson KIA 23-4-16 battle of Katya in Sinai     shown formed in Sinai Jan 1916 - part Kress Force (3655 men) 2xBn's 32nd Regt + Hejaz Arab (Akendji) Camel Regt + 2 Camel Co + 6x guns 8th FAR at Katya April 1916 - 2nd Canal Exp Force 8-16 - 2nd Camel Co (3rd Camel Regt) (1000 men) - possibly the Medine Camel Raider (Medine Akinci Taburu) Regt (Medine Akinci Alayi) (Medine Hecinsuvar Alayi) to Hejaz 1916 (possibly known as Camel Raider (Akinci) Bn) at Medina 3xCo's shown Dec 1916 reports at Medina Camel Regt (500 men) at Bir Raha district Camel Regt (300 men) at Mohafiz Alai 1xCo Camel Regt + 1xCo at Abu el-Naam and 1xCo at Bowat                

 

4th Camel R    no details        (4th) Camel (Hecin) Regt           no details    reported was forwarded to Iraq front 9-6-15    

 

Along with these four Regts were a number of native/arab camel units raised localy, like;

 

Ageyl camel     Hejaz        Hejaz            Ageyl Camel corps (arabs)        Medina Forces at Bowat - El-Ula 1/42nd Regt + Ageyl camel corps (arabs) - El-Wejh 1Bn Jendames (800) + Ageyl camel corps (arabs)

 

Hejaz camel    Hejaz at Sinai April 1916        Hejaz            Hedjaz Arab (Akendji) camel Regt     Maj Mullmann (G)    shown Kress Force (3655 men) 2xBn's 32nd Regt +

Hejaz Arab (Akendji) Camel Regt + 2 Camel Co + 6x guns 8th FAR at Katya April 1916

 

Sham Camel    Yeman         Bir Raha district            Shammar Camel corps (arabs)        Shammar Camel corps (arabs) Shammar Arabs (300 men)
            

As I said most Camel units were at times without enough animals to ride, like at Rafa, where most of the Camel Troops were dismounted due to the lack of riding camels. 

 

"The Turkish garrison at Rafa under Lieutenant Colonel Ismail Hakki Bey commanding the 31^st Infantry Regiment consisted of his own 1^st and 2^nd Battalions 31^st Infantry Regiment, 3^rd Division (less the 5^th and 7^th Companies), including around 6 to 10 MG's from the MG Companies of the 31^st Regiment and the 80^th Regiment (less gun or guns lost at Magdhaba) and a mixed MG Company from the 3^rd Cavalry Division, a Turkish camel Corps platoon and dismounted Camel Company (200 men), a Gendarme Company (30 men) and part of a hospital unit. The force was supported by four mountain guns of the 8^th mountain Battery 1^st Artillery Regiment,"

 

Most ORbats for the Ottomans in Palestine list Camel Troops, but never in large numbers and mostly attached to the 3rd Cavalry Div  like;

 

Battles around Murat River on July-Sep.1916 at the order of 4th AC of 2nd Army Feb 1917- 6th Cav Regt + 7th Cav Regt (500 men + 8xguns) + 1-3/138th Regt 138th MG Co (3rd Div) (1500 men) 8th Cav Regt det - shown March 1917 Allied reports 1st Gaza 3rd Cav Div 6th Cav Regt 8th Cav Regts (1500 men 11 guns) (shown in Turkish reported 138th Regt) +  (arrived after battle) 125th Regt (2500 men 6 MG's) - shown on orbat 6th Cav Regt & 8th Cav Regt att 2nd Regt (for fighting at Es Salt) May 1918 - shown June 1917 Allied reports (1800 Cav 14 MG's) + Camel Co (150 men) + Mule Mounted Regt (500 men) - shown Oct 1917 Allied reports 6th Cav Regt (500 men 8 MG's) 8th Cav Regt (500 men 8 MG's) (7th Cav Regt + Bty 4 guns T/det to Arabia) att 125th Regt (16th Div) 650 men? 12 MGs including 8 x Lewis guns) - shown Oct 1917 3rd Cav Div had 16 MG's (6th Cav Regt 8 MGs 8th Cav Regt 8 MGs) - shown Turkish Oct 1917 reports 3rd Cav Div (1800 men 16 Mgs 4 guns) - shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (1350 cav 24 Mgs) + 7th Cav Regt (650 cav 8 MGs) - shown Feb 1918 Allied reports (1000 cav 26 MGs) 6th Cav Regt 8th Cav Regt 1Co Camel Corps (100 men) + 701st (30 cav) & 702nd (30 cav) Cav Troops - shown March 1918 Allied reports (650 cav 19 MGs) 6th Cav Regt 8th Cav Regt 1Co Camel Corps (100 men) - shown April 1918 Allied reports (500 cav 12 MGs) + Camel Co (100 men) entioned att 145th Regt - shown May 1918 Allied reports - (600 cav 19 MG's) + Camel Co (100 men) + 7th Cav Regt (350 cav 8 Mgs) - shown June 1918 Allied reports 6th Cav 8th Cav Regts (600 cav 100 men 16 MGs) - shown July 1918 Allied reports 6th Cav Regt 8th Cav Regts (600 cav 16 MG's) + Camel Co (100 men) - shown Aug 1918 Allied reports 6th Cav Regt 8th Cav Regts (600 cav 16 MG's) Mule Mtn Regt & Camel Co (375 men) - shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 6th Cav Regt (300 men 8 Mgs) 8th Cav Regt (380 men 8 Mgs) + camel Co (100 men) - shown Oct 1918 Allied reports PoW commanders 6th Cav and 8th Cav Regts
 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 30 July , 2019 by stevebecker

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Again some how I picked up a photo?

 

Here are some more I have;

[emrezmen]

2 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Again some how I picked up a photo?

 

Well, I uploaded it while writing the post, and somehow it popped up to you yet again. It's odd to see your image used in somebody's post before you share it.  Anyway

 

Ottoman Camel Corps (Hecinsüvar / Camel rider) was quite an interesting class in Ottoman army. They wore unique, cool looking, historical type of uniforms, probably nicked from those of old Ottoman light cavalry sub-class called "Akincilar" (raiders) which was active in 14th-16th centuries. They're also usually wore a cap badge (a crescent) which was an exceptional thing in Ottoman army. Their distinctive collar color was white, same as ordinary cavalry. Sadly, there's little or no study on these guys.

 

The most famous soldier from Ottoman Hecinsüvar units was Lt. Halet (b.1895). He was killed during the unsuccessful attack on Dueidar, which was held mainly by 5/Royal Scots Fusiliers, in Battle of Katia. A wonderful example of Ottoman hecinsüvar uniforms in this photo of him below (Photo source: Tasvir-i Efkar Magazine):

 

Group of officers from 1st Hecinsüvar Regiment or Medina Hecinsüvar Regiment operating in Hedjaz. Regt commander Maj. Mehmet Atif in the middle.

[

Edited 31 July , 2019 by emrezmen
Grammatical correction

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Sorry about that, must be a fault with the system as it appears to keep happening?

 

Here are some officers of the Camel Corps I have on the books;

 

Ali Pasha Bey    2nd Camel (Hecin) Regt     Maj        
Fouad Efendi    2nd Camel (Hecin) Regt - ?Co - ? Troop    Lt        commanded det at Nekhl when captured 2-17
Halet Efendi    (3) Camel (Hecin) Regt - 2Co    Lt    KIA 23-4-16 battle of Katya    (1895-) from Galatasaray later he went to France and graduated from Somur Cavalry and Riding School served Balkan War Aid to Enar Pasha KIA 23-4-16 battle of Katya in Sinai
Hassan Iskander Bey    2nd Camel (Hecin) Regt     Maj        commanded at Gaza 2-17
Kasim Efendi     2nd Camel (Hecin) Regt- ?Co - ? Troop    Lt        commanded Hassana det when captured by ICC 2-17
Mehmet Atif Bey (Atesdagli)     Baghdad Gendarmerie Command Garrison at Mecca & Nablus Gendarmerie Bn & 2nd (6th) Camel (Hecin) Regt & 2nd Provisional (Composite) Force    Capt to Maj to LtCol        born 1876; Crete - died December 3 1947; Istanbul) graduated 1899 1314-Sv. Cavalry 48 Balkan War to Maj 1916 to LtCol 1917 & War of Independance 24th Div?
Memduh Efendi    (3) Camel (Hecin) Regt - 2Co     Lt    KIA 23-4-16 battle of Katya    from Galatasaray 
Sadik Bey    1st Camel (Hecin) Regt    LtCol        
Sirri Bey    (3) Camel (Hecin) Regt - ? Co    Capt        
Suphi Nuri (ileri) Efendi    1st Camel (Hecin) Regt - 1Co & Staff 4th Army    Lt        (Canakkale 1887- Istanbul 1945) Graduating from Faculty of Law in Istanbul he made his doctorate on Law in Sorbon University Paris In 1931 he became Proffessor of Law at Istanbul University
Sureyya (Süreyya) Efendi    (3) Camel (Hecin) Regt - 2Co     Capt    KIA 23-4-16 battle of Katya    KIA 23-4-16 battle of Katya in Sinai 
Yakup Robenson Efendi    (3) Camel (Hecin) Regt - 2Co     Lt    KIA 23-4-16 battle of Katya    from Galatasaray KIA 23-4-16 battle of Katya in Sinai on Palastine front in 1916 brothers Abdurrahman & Ahmet 
 

Cheers

 

S.B