Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Sign in to follow this  
BrendanLee

The Black and Tans

Recommended Posts

BrendanLee

Hi,

I have posted the question below in another tread but am also trying to find out if a Black and Tan was a soldier or not. As the Black and Tans were Auxiliaries did they retain any connection with the Regiment they were recruited from and if KIA would they receive a military burial and be listed on the CWGC site

I am trying to put together a list of all the British Soldiers KIA or died I Ireland during the Irish War of Independence (1919 – 1921). I am looking for the usual CWGC type information and if possible the cause and place of death. Any information would be gratefully appreciated, the information is for my website.

Regards,

Brendan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chrisharley9

Brendan

Re Black & Tans they were not soldiers but rather policemen so are not entitled to CWGC commemoration. A number of them did receive military funerals

Suggest you have a look through the non commemorated section of the forum as there are large number of threads on soldiers who were killed in Ireland during this period

Drop me a PM with your e mail address as I have some info to pass on to you

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
historyphil

Hello Brendan,

You are equating the 'Black an' Tans' with the 'Auxies' as being the same formation however they were two seperate and different forces.

The Black an' Tans were signed up in England in 1920 to be Royal Irish Constabulary (R.I.C.) personnel as Police Constables. They were always intended to be police and should be seen as such even from our distance in time. They had no administrative or other links with the British Army (B.A.) and did not have to have been a member of the Armed Forces to join the R.I.C. It was simply that more men were wanted as the indiginous Irish were not joining due to the RIC Boycott and resignations form the RIC were seriously affecting its operational effectivness so a recritment drive took place in Britan it was so successful (due to the postwar economic depression) that there were not enough RIC uniforms to go around for the inrush of new recruits and to make them appear official they wore any type or mix of uniform some even wearing WWI 'Hospital blues'. The short fall of uniforms was soon rectified and very quickly all RIC wore the same dark blue serge material and were bound by the same rules of conduct or were sacked.

The Auxillaries however were a different formation alltogether, officially known as 'Auxillery, Royal Irish Constabulary' (ADRIC), and this is where the confusion begins. The ADRIC recruits were drawn only from men who had previously held officer rank in the B.A. such was the interest in joining that before they were even considered for enrollment into the ARIC that war service record was used as filter system for joining with the result many held decorations for bravery including 3 Victoria Cross holders. Men of action were required and such were recruited. They were registered as 'Temporay Cadets - RIC' with the nominal rank of Sargeant (RIC) on a £1 a day plus British Army officers allowences and they were under the direct control of a (still serving B.A.) General Crozier (other confusing points) who considered that his men were not bound by consensual policing methods as they were officers and therefore gentlemen consequently he did not exercise any type of discipline on them but they had been requrited to act as policemen and support the RIC in the 'troubled districts'.

From Day 1 of their formation the Auxies wore a distinctive style of uniform, of tailored to fit Army Kahaki Jackets displaying military decorations and Sam Browne belts with an open low slung (quick draw) revolver holster, tailored riding breeches and highly polished boots all topped offf with Tam o' Shanter hats to mark themselves out, to give a kind of 1920's "come an' get it if ya think your hard enough" message, very tough individuals whose boyhood had been spent in WWI and with an awful reputation in Ireland that they worked very hard at achieving. Many 'Auxies' went on from Ireland to fight in the different European/Asian wars of the 1920's and 30's or the Palastine police before surfacing in the UK in 1939/40 to rejoin the B.A. as warfare was the only trade they knew and were trained for.

The National Archive at Kew hold the R.IC. records which include details of those signed up as Black an' Tans' in 1920 and the membership rolls of the A.D.R.I.C. . The 'Soldiers Died' softwear will help with collating B.A. deaths in Ireland until 1922, however I have been advised on other occasions that the RIC and ARIC deaths will not appear using this softwear. Check out Charles Townshend's work British Military Response's in Ireland 1919-21.

Hope this helps, any more shout out, Philip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ba.eight

Concisely put, Phil.

One caveat: a surprising number of auxies weren't in fact officers of whichever service arm. This was particularly true of Q company. Q patrolled the North Wall docks of Dublin and its main focus was armaments smuggling. The company was set up late on in the actual conflict - cApril 1921 - and because of the sort of expertise needed, recruited heavily among ex-naval men. Not only did it include recruits from the merchant marine, it also had a noticeable number of other ranks.

Check out the ADRIC numbers around 1500 and you'll find Q recruits who include bosuns and the like.

Also, of the three ADRIC VCs, one - George Onions, had been a Lance-Corporal, though may have been commissioned shortly before demob.

Hope this is of use, one and all.

ba.eight

Hello Brendan,

You are equating the 'Black an' Tans' with the 'Auxies' as being the same formation however they were two seperate and different forces.

The Black an' Tans were signed up in England in 1920 to be Royal Irish Constabulary (R.I.C.) personnel as Police Constables. They were always intended to be police and should be seen as such even from our distance in time. They had no administrative or other links with the British Army (B.A.) and did not have to have been a member of the Armed Forces to join the R.I.C. It was simply that more men were wanted as the indiginous Irish were not joining due to the RIC Boycott and resignations form the RIC were seriously affecting its operational effectivness so a recritment drive took place in Britan it was so successful (due to the postwar economic depression) that there were not enough RIC uniforms to go around for the inrush of new recruits and to make them appear official they wore any type or mix of uniform some even wearing WWI 'Hospital blues'. The short fall of uniforms was soon rectified and very quickly all RIC wore the same dark blue serge material and were bound by the same rules of conduct or were sacked.

The Auxillaries however were a different formation alltogether, officially known as 'Auxillery, Royal Irish Constabulary' (ADRIC), and this is where the confusion begins. The ADRIC recruits were drawn only from men who had previously held officer rank in the B.A. such was the interest in joining that before they were even considered for enrollment into the ARIC that war service record was used as filter system for joining with the result many held decorations for bravery including 3 Victoria Cross holders. Men of action were required and such were recruited. They were registered as 'Temporay Cadets - RIC' with the nominal rank of Sargeant (RIC) on a £1 a day plus British Army officers allowences and they were under the direct control of a (still serving B.A.) General Crozier (other confusing points) who considered that his men were not bound by consensual policing methods as they were officers and therefore gentlemen consequently he did not exercise any type of discipline on them but they had been requrited to act as policemen and support the RIC in the 'troubled districts'.

From Day 1 of their formation the Auxies wore a distinctive style of uniform, of tailored to fit Army Kahaki Jackets displaying military decorations and Sam Browne belts with an open low slung (quick draw) revolver holster, tailored riding breeches and highly polished boots all topped offf with Tam o' Shanter hats to mark themselves out, to give a kind of 1920's "come an' get it if ya think your hard enough" message, very tough individuals whose boyhood had been spent in WWI and with an awful reputation in Ireland that they worked very hard at achieving. Many 'Auxies' went on from Ireland to fight in the different European/Asian wars of the 1920's and 30's or the Palastine police before surfacing in the UK in 1939/40 to rejoin the B.A. as warfare was the only trade they knew and were trained for.

The National Archive at Kew hold the R.IC. records which include details of those signed up as Black an' Tans' in 1920 and the membership rolls of the A.D.R.I.C. . The 'Soldiers Died' softwear will help with collating B.A. deaths in Ireland until 1922, however I have been advised on other occasions that the RIC and ARIC deaths will not appear using this softwear. Check out Charles Townshend's work British Military Response's in Ireland 1919-21.

Hope this helps, any more shout out, Philip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dez

Brendan,

There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject on the British Military Badge Forum about two years ago. It can still be accessed in the Everything Else section under Civilian Services, the post is called Auxiliary R.I.C. Cadets. The comments by Peter Mc on post #23 are particularly valid and remove a lot of misconceptions.

ba.eight,

Except for one Cadet attached to "D" Company who was previously a Mate, in the Merchant Marine, outside of "Q" Company I haven't noticed any any non - Army/Navy/Air Force personnel, do you know of any examples in other Companies, and have you any examples of other ranks being recruited, I found one, but I can't find him in my notes at the moment. George Onions V.C. was commissioned into the Rifle Brigade as a 2/Lieut. (no date). One of the other V.C.s had a much shorter career in the Aux. Div., he was Lieut. James Bulmer Johnson, V.C., who joined on 15th June 1921, and was posted as a Temp. Cadet to "R" Company. He was struck off strength as a deserter on the 22nd August 1921.

Dez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stanley_C_Jenkins

I think a note of caution is required insofar as, as far as I can make out, a number of army officers were seconded to the RIC as part of the overall security strategy, and although they were dubbed "Black and Tans" by rebel supporters, they were still in fact soldiers. Colonel Gerald Smyth of Banbridge, County Down, seems to have been in this category.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ba.eight

Dez,

I'm not sure I have noticed any non-officers outside of Q company. Shall take a look among my notes. A shortcut might be to go to the ADRIC nos which correspond to the date of Q's foundation (cApril 1921 - think that should be around no 1500 but don't hiold me to that). You might well find several who began in Q and then transferred elsewhere.

Of course there were many commissioned from the ranks (Military Medal winners for example). I'll take a look

ba.eight

Brendan,

There was quite a bit of discussion on this subject on the British Military Badge Forum about two years ago. It can still be accessed in the Everything Else section under Civilian Services, the post is called Auxiliary R.I.C. Cadets. The comments by Peter Mc on post #23 are particularly valid and remove a lot of misconceptions.

ba.eight,

Except for one Cadet attached to "D" Company who was previously a Mate, in the Merchant Marine, outside of "Q" Company I haven't noticed any any non - Army/Navy/Air Force personnel, do you know of any examples in other Companies, and have you any examples of other ranks being recruited, I found one, but I can't find him in my notes at the moment. George Onions V.C. was commissioned into the Rifle Brigade as a 2/Lieut. (no date). One of the other V.C.s had a much shorter career in the Aux. Div., he was Lieut. James Bulmer Johnson, V.C., who joined on 15th June 1921, and was posted as a Temp. Cadet to "R" Company. He was struck off strength as a deserter on the 22nd August 1921.

Dez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geraldryan

Overall commander of all Police Forces Ireland who held the title "Chief of Police" was Maj General H.H.Tudor. Crozier resigned because Gen Tudor reinstated a number of "Auxies" who were to be deciplined. I have been writing a book on General Tudor now for 4 yrs and to be sure it is a very strange story indeed as Gen Tudor appears to have gone into an Irish community in Newfoundland in 1925 until his death in 1965. He had an Irish nurse (Monica Mc Carthy) who appears to have been with him all his life in Newfoundland. The family referred to Gen Tudor as "Blacky Tudor" a reference to his connections to the "Tans". Incidently Churchill referred to the "Tans" as the Black and Tans as he states in a letter that Tudor will take most of the "Black and Tans" to Palistine to set a new Police Force up there at the end of 1922

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geraldryan

Major General H.H.Tudorpost-4289-1273868530.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geraldryan

General Tudors Helmet and cap.post-4289-1273868729.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geraldryan

General Tudorpost-4289-1273868930.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geraldryan

The Brodie Helmet of Gen Tudorpost-4289-1273869060.jpg

Sorry about the last Picture!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stanley_C_Jenkins

A question that has recently cropped up about the hybrid status of the Auxiliaries concerns powers of arrest - whete the RIC cadets sworn-in as police constables so that they could arrest the rebels?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BrendanLee
A question that has recently cropped up about the hybrid status of the Auxiliaries concerns powers of arrest - whete the RIC cadets sworn-in as police constables so that they could arrest the rebels?

They operated under the Defence of the Realm Act 1914 and then the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act 1920 so they did not require powers of arrest as they could detain suspects without the need to arrest them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
irishmen1916
They operated under the Defence of the Realm Act 1914 and then the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act 1920 so they did not require powers of arrest as they could detain suspects without the need to arrest them.

Last Saturday a new memorial was unveiled in Dublin Castle to the 83 members of An Garda Síochána

who where killed in the service of the state. Within this memorial is also a specially commissioned stone

sculpture, a tribute to all deceased members of An Garda Síochána, the Royal Irish Constabulary

and the Dublin Metropolitan Police.

As this part of the memorial covers the RIC, would this not also commemorate the Black and Tans and the Auxiliaries ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Peter Mc
Last Saturday a new memorial was unveiled in Dublin Castle to the 83 members of An Garda Síochána

who where killed in the service of the state. Within this memorial is also a specially commissioned stone

sculpture, a tribute to all deceased members of An Garda Síochána, the Royal Irish Constabulary

and the Dublin Metropolitan Police.

As this part of the memorial covers the RIC, would this not also commemorate the Black and Tans and the Auxiliaries ?

Yes it would. And in February this year in County Longford a special memorial Mass was held for the members of the Longford Gardai who died in the line of duty. The Mass also commemorated the members of all of the old Irish policing forces who died in that county including the RIC and RIC Auxiliaries, whose names were read out during the service. A very significant event and attended by the Assistant Commissioner of the GS and the Chair of the RUC GC Foundation, amongst other senior GS and former RUC Officers. For more info: Memorial Mass at Granard and Longford Leader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stanley_C_Jenkins
Yes it would. And in February this year in County Longford a special memorial Mass was held for the members of the Longford Gardai who died in the line of duty. The Mass also commemorated the members of all of the old Irish policing forces who died in that county including the RIC and RIC Auxiliaries, whose names were read out during the service. A very significant event and attended by the Assistant Commissioner of the GS and the Chair of the RUC GC Foundation, amongst other senior GS and former RUC Officers. For more info: Memorial Mass at Granard and Longford Leader

Is anyone going to tell the "keyboard warriors" on the Politics.IE forum?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Murrough

Stanley, you need to delete your link to that forum.LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BrendanLee
A picture of the new Garda Memorial Garden in Dublin Castle.

post-53649-1274563815.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BrendanLee

The names of the Garda killed on duty are inscribed around the garden, there are a few DMP names, I think these DMP men may have been killed on duty after the Free State was founded.

post-53649-1274564232.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...